Can a Gibbering Mouther maintain multiple grapples? I think it can...


Rules Questions

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

So stick with me on this as you might think "you can only maintain a grapple with 1 opponent" ... but after looking this over more carefully I'm not quite sure about how this rule is written...

So according to the rules a Gibbering Mouther can attack and grab up to 6 bites per round as shown:

Quote:
Melee 6 bites +7 (1d4 plus grab)

Okay, so say there is a party of 6, the Gibbering Mouther attacks all 6, and maintains a grab against all 6. Good so far?

Next look at the Grab rules:

Quote:

Grab (Ex)

If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.

I can read that in that you can both grab and start a grapple with each attack. Therefore you can attack 6 separate targets AND grab 6 separate targets AND grapple 6 separate targets all at the same time!

Next you have the rules for Grapple themselves, which read:

Quote:

Grapple

If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. ... Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).

Now if read that series of events:

  • The Gibbering Mouther can attack 6 creatures at once, and then...
  • Grab each creature (assuming 6 hits), and then...
  • Perform free action to start a grapple using it's Grab ability, thereby performing a grapple on 6 creatures at once (assuming all rolls confirm), and then...
  • Since the Gibbering Mouther already has six creatures in a grapple it can do a standard action to maintain ALL of those creatures it has in a grapple.

If you read the rules very carefully it never states "one" opponent when maintaining a grapple. It only states that:

Quote:

Grapple

Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe

So if the Gibbering Mouther is holding 6 creatures in a Grab/Grapple combo, it can maintain ALL of those grapples with a single standard action check.

Let me know what you think but I believe this logic is correct...


'a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe' is singular both for the check and for the grapple, indicating that you need a standard action per foe.

If it said 'continue grappling all grappled foes', then it would work.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
_Ozy_ wrote:

'a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe' is singular both for the check and for the grapple, indicating that you need a standard action per foe.

If it said 'continue grappling all grappled foes', then it would work.

No, you are assuming it's for a single foe. It never states a single foe. It states "to continue grappling the foe", and if you are already grappling 6 foes according to my earlier logic, then you can continue to grapple each foe.

Liberty's Edge

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Stonesnake wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:

'a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe' is singular both for the check and for the grapple, indicating that you need a standard action per foe.

If it said 'continue grappling all grappled foes', then it would work.

No, you are assuming it's for a single foe. It never states a single foe. It states "to continue grappling the foe", and if you are already grappling 6 foes according to my earlier logic, then you can continue to grapple each foe.

"The foe" refers to a single entity rather than a group in this case because it is referring back to the prior part of the sentence that says "an opponent", which is unambiguously a single entity.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Okay, once again... If you read the rules on Grab is states:

Quote:
If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.

It doesn't say this is an option, you MUST start the grapple.

So if you can only grapple one opponent at a time, why bother even having 6 attacks? Or for similar monsters such as the Giant Octopus which has 8 attack/grabs?

Otherwise it would defeat the whole purpose of being able to do multiple attacks. Otherwise you attack one creature, do a successful hit, successfully grab the creature ... and then you're done? If you can't attack/grab/grapple multiple creatures then you are done with your attacks as you can't perform it on more than one creature at a time.

That seems silly, why would it even have six attacks then?

Liberty's Edge

Stonesnake wrote:

Okay, once again... If you read the rules on Grab is states:

Quote:
If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.

It doesn't say this is an option, you MUST start the grapple.

So if you can only grapple one opponent at a time, why bother even having 6 attacks? Or for similar monsters such as the Giant Octopus which has 8 attack/grabs?

Otherwise it would defeat the whole purpose of being able to do multiple attacks. Otherwise you attack one creature, do a successful hit, successfully grab the creature ... and then you're done? If you can't attack/grab/grapple multiple creatures then you are done with your attacks as you can't perform it on more than one creature at a time.

That seems silly, why would it even have six attacks then?

Because the other 5 could fail? Or the grabs automatically fail due to size differences, so now you need damage?


A gibbering mouther can certainly make six grabs in a turn. But, it cannot maintain that many.

You, yourself are assuming that you can maintain multiple grapples with one action. The rules do not say this. It only refers to a singular grapple. If the singular phrasing of the rules does not convince you, have a look at this feat. There would be no reason for this feat to exist if you could normally maintain all your grapples with one action.

However, maintaining multiple grapples is possible even without that style. But, you must possess the Greater Grapple feat. This allows you to make two checks on your turn to maintain two different grapples.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Again, I thought this was about the Korean spammers.


The Archive wrote:

A gibbering mouther can certainly make six grabs in a turn. But, it cannot maintain that many.

You, yourself are assuming that you can maintain multiple grapples with one action. The rules do not say this. It only refers to a singular grapple. If the singular phrasing of the rules does not convince you, have a look at this feat. There would be no reason for this feat to exist if you could normally maintain all your grapples with one action.

However, maintaining multiple grapples is possible. But, you must possess the Greater Grapple feat. This allows you to make two checks on your turn to maintain two different grapples.

Hmm, how does that feat work if it doesn't require Greater Grapple as a pre-req? You can't move the two grappled foes if you can't maintain the grapple on both of them.

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