Hi, I know that there are a lot of 'get X to Y instead of Z' feats and traits out there, for example Bruising Intellect and Student of Philosophy, cleaver wordplay etc. but is there anything that allows getting charisma to sense motive instead of wisdom.
the reason I ask is because whilst I understand why sense motive is wisdom based, it would make playing a conman or gambler character easier. wouldn't have to have high wisdom and high charisma.
May not work with the build you're making, but....
Versatile Performance (Ex)
At 2nd level, a bard can choose one type of Perform skill. He can use his bonus in that skill in place of his bonus in associated skills. When substituting in this way, the bard uses his total Perform skill bonus, including class skill bonus, in place of its associated skill's bonus, whether or not he has ranks in that skill or if it is a class skill. At 6th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the bard can select an additional type of Perform to substitute.
The types of Perform and their associated skills are: Act (Bluff, Disguise), Comedy (Bluff, Intimidate), Dance (Acrobatics, Fly), Keyboard Instruments (Diplomacy, Intimidate), Oratory (Diplomacy, Sense Motive), Percussion (Handle Animal, Intimidate), Sing (Bluff, Sense Motive), String (Bluff, Diplomacy), and Wind (Diplomacy, Handle Animal).
Skill Focus Perform(sing)and you're ready to gamble all night.
You could get it indirectly with the Versatile Performance ability of the Bard (or Skald). And there's the Guiding Star thing some Oracles get.
thanks guys. I was hoping that there was an easier way than a 2 level dip but I guess its not a terrible option. could always reflavour an Oratory Bard as a Rogue. (though I'm not personally so keen on reflavouring)
As a Con Man class, Bard blows Rogue out of the water.
Oratory & Comedy with versatile performance make for a great wisecracking hero. Just make sure you use a well-placed pun, put-down or witticism whenever you land a solid hit in combat.
And yes, Bards are far better conmen than Rogues. Though one of the new Eldritch Scoundrel archetype Rogues exploiting some illusion or enchantment spells might make it close.
I have to agree that the best conman is going to be a bard. In addition to versatile performance they also have bardic knowledge. That might not seem like it is important to a conman but stop and think about it. In order to fool someone you are going to have to be able to at least sound like you knows what you are talking about. Having good knowledge skill goes a long way towards this. Put a single point into each knowledge skill to get the favored class bonus. Now no matter what your cover is you have the appropriate knowledge skill on a good roll. Let say you are pretending to be a cleric you now know enough to play the part. The same thing is true with any other profession you want to pretend to be. You may not be able to actually do the work, but you can talk the talk.
Second bards get spells that is going to be really important for two reasons. First of all having spells is going to make pretending to be a spell caster a lot easier. Their spell list is mostly enchantment and illusion with some utility spells thrown in for good measure. This fits perfectly for a conman. With some of the spells a bard gets there is no way a rogue can compete. Also just having some of the spells on your list is going to be helpful. If you are pretending to be a cleric being able to cast cure light wounds is going to be very useful in convincing someone you are legit.
Don’t let the class listed on your character sheet define who your character is. What are you looking to get out of the rogue that the bard does not already have? With versatile performance and bardic knowledge they beat the rogue hands down when it comes to skills.
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I'll agree a Bard blows a Rogue out the water. As does an Empiricist Investigator. Both crush a rogue at skills and when built right. While at the same time having better utility and saving throws.
Don’t let the class listed on your character sheet define who your character is.
That is some really really good advice.
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A Mesmerist also makes an excellent liar, though they lack the Charisma to Sense Motive thing (they do get half their level to Bluff, though).
Another option would be an Inquisitor of a tricky deity with the Conversion Inquisition. That does the reverse of what you're talking about and grants Wisdom to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate, and get a scaling bonus to Sense Motive to boot. So, that'd work too, with only wisdom needing to be high rather than only Charisma.
If going con man Bard, make sure to take Oratory and Acting as your first two Versatile Performances, since that covers all the needed skills and makes Pageant of the Peacock available. And Pageant is just great for a liar. Make sure to pick up Glibness, too. Glibness is wonderful.
There any updates on this? They release anything new to pull this off? Really wanted a trait or something for a specific class.