in a world that has magic and alchemy what would be your first small steps to inventing the gun. the prelude to introducing the gunslinger. what would be the first few steps players would need to make for creating a gun?
i would think the first step would be to figure out what metals to make a small tube that is closed off at one end open at the other could contain and direct a small explosion.i would think.
what suggestions do you have on the subject?
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Firearms in Earth needed several centuries to go from gunpowder fueled flamethrowers, to small siege cannons, to a portable and slow firing archaic rifle. Three to four centuries to be exact.
One could research Earth progress on firearms, or just say that someone was gifted with divine inspiration on how to build them. Seriously, some of the precursors to firearms included bamboo "fire lances" which were spears with a primitive flamethrower at the tip.
The point is, guns were not invented from scratch overnight. There were prototype inventions of dubious reliability long before matchlock rifles. If you want something invented within a human PCs lifetime, some outside agency should become a deux ex machina for it (and perhaps finding and protecting such an inspired person would be an adventure hook in itself).
yes but magic is involved and bombs, grenades, and directed blasts are already a thing.it would just take one creative alchemist/wizard and some metallurgy. and no i am not expecting to have a fully automatic rifle but a musket rifle/pistol them fifty years of gunsmithing, alchemy, magic, and gunslingery later you might have made a lot of a lot of advancement in the field going a ton of different ways. like magelock pistols, achemical spay weapons, or some sort of highly precise mundane rifled weapons.
humans have a lot of driving force they might kick progress in the butt. but there is a few races that have very long lives (200-350years)that could keep the progress on track. then there is the short lived races that influence the progress. goblins and kobolds are crafty races. in a world where there is magic and a ton of races some of which could see the creation of something and guide it along through its centuries of life could advance the creation of something quiet rapidly.
an elven gunslinger could start out with flintlocks and through out his life trying to improve his weapons end his life with advanced revolvers that's 350 years of him or her going to and or finding thing to improve his weapons maybe intermingling with other more driven short lived races that come up with things he would not have though of but apply to or improves upon.
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The problem is that you specified low magic, so I tried not to use magic as a factor at all since I'm unsure of what precise limitations you mean.
It can also be a detriment since a fireball, scorching ray, or magic missile wand would be more accurate and reliable than an experimental flintlock rifle. If it is more simple to "use magic device" a scorching ray wand, why bother with a prototype flintlock that might easily explode in your face?
There is also cultural factors involved. How progressively minded is your fantasy world? Would mages inhibit such technology if it threatened their monopoly on making things go boom? Are there deities that promote invention? Are there deities that inhibit invention? Are there incentives for inventors to make new things (such as patent protections, or monetary rewards, or improved social status)? Are there kingdoms that outlaw magic, or has another need to make things go boom without magical means?
Don't even get started on the technologist feat or Numeria in the Golarion setting. Suddenly you are adding laser guns and playing Thundarr the Barbarian.
Really, our only real roadmap is how firearms developed in our own history. Mixing in magic, fantasy society, your setting's theology, your setting's physical laws, and even planar contact sets such wild variables that the question can only be limited to - what would the GM allow?
I would also be careful about technological progress being rapid. If you allow PCs to develop firearms from scratch all the way to flintlocks, which took us several centuries to do, what is to stop them from mass production, electrical lighting, and the internet in a few decades too?
It may be best to say the following -
1) Firearms were already around, they just aren't encouraged s much as they were in Earth history.
2) Divine inspiration, or a planar visitor suddenly made it viable.
3) Sorry, no guns for you.
If this is about PCs actually inventing world changing technology - I would have to say such a thing is best worked with between a GM and the players as it alters a GM's setting. And by that I mean if the GM throws it out as a campaign idea. Unless a PC specifically made an "inventor genius" character, I likely would toss such an idea away as a GM. Pathfinder PCs are primarily adventurers and explorers, not steampunk scientists.
It was about 200 years between matchlock and flintlock, but the part you are completely ignoring is that metallurgy technologies to make articulated full plate came are the same that enabled the invention of the firearm - which is why full plate and the gun are 100% overlapping in history. In real life full plate also stopped bullets, but was so difficult and expensive to make that just investing in a bunch of guys with pikes and guns was a more effective use of resources. This is also true for the standard weapons used in the game, which require refining technologies from as recent as the Victorian eras to make. Think about it, rapiers could not be made until the late 16th century. Rapiers and flintlocks came about at the same time.
The other issue is that many forms of armor in D&D are complete fabrications and never actually existed, so there are already modern technology used in reenactments or movies already in the setting that require even more advanced technologies.
Finally, the firearm weapon representations in Pathfinder are definitely not representative to firearm technology in the real world. The way they function is more like very, very early firearms - even the "advanced" firearms function more like matchlock guns than the exceedingly reliable flintlocks. Even saying they use metal cartridges (19th century invention), they don't act like it whatsoever. Real life soldiers fired muskets at 10rounds/min with training, and the lesser armies still moved at 6-8rounds/min. Add in Revolver technology coming from the 16th century but blunderbusses not being around until the 18th century, or fire lances dating back to the 10th century, and the mismatch in rules and technology is just all over the place.
As far as academical advances, Saltpeter is the only oddball but it has been used for fertilizer since Egyptian times and can be created from human urine - something that really isn't outside ordinary.
TL;DR - Basically as soon as someone discovers the fertilizer they have been using is explosive it's off to the races for gun technology. The mechanical technology is there if you have full plate in your game (triply so if you have adamantine armors) to make huge leaps forward beyond the timeline of the real world. Firearms are exploitable for damage in the system so just be wary of that.
hiiamtom wrote: It was about 200 years between matchlock and flintlock, but the part you are completely ignoring is that metallurgy technologies to make articulated full plate came are the same that enabled the invention of the firearm - which is why full plate and the gun are 100% overlapping in history. In real life full plate also stopped bullets, but was so difficult and expensive to make that just investing in a bunch of guys with pikes and guns was a more effective use of resources. This is also true for the standard weapons used in the game, which require refining technologies from as recent as the Victorian eras to make. Think about it, rapiers could not be made until the late 16th century. Rapiers and flintlocks came about at the same time.
The other issue is that many forms of armor in D&D are complete fabrications and never actually existed, so there are already modern technology used in reenactments or movies already in the setting that require even more advanced technologies.
Finally, the firearm weapon representations in Pathfinder are definitely not representative to firearm technology in the real world. The way they function is more like very, very early firearms - even the "advanced" firearms function more like matchlock guns than the exceedingly reliable flintlocks. Even saying they use metal cartridges (19th century invention), they don't act like it whatsoever. Real life soldiers fired muskets at 10rounds/min with training, and the lesser armies still moved at 6-8rounds/min. Add in Revolver technology coming from the 16th century but blunderbusses not being around until the 18th century, or fire lances dating back to the 10th century, and the mismatch in rules and technology is just all over the place.
As far as academical advances, Saltpeter is the only oddball but it has been used for fertilizer since Egyptian times and can be created from human urine - something that really isn't outside ordinary.
TL;DR - Basically as soon as someone discovers the fertilizer they have been using is explosive it's off to the races for gun technology. The mechanical technology is there if you have full plate in your game (triply so if you have adamantine armors) to make huge leaps forward beyond the timeline of the real world. Firearms are exploitable for damage in the system so just be wary of that.
"Off to races" is a bit strong. Gunpowder dates back to roughly the 10th century, but didn't reach flintlocks for 700 years. Yeah, it was useful throughout the period, but didn't become dominant until hundreds of years after somebody figured out the explosive part. Nor was it just better metallurgy, though that was certainly a big factor. There were a lot of conceptual advances along the way.
As you say, PF firearms are weird. Conceptually flintlocks, but firing much more like later guns. 8-10 rounds per minute from a musket is higher than most estimates I've seen. 3 is more common. Maybe 4 for elite troops under good conditions. Which is why flintlocks were weapons for armies and mass volleys, not for small scale close fights like PCs get into - other than in the "fire the loaded gun, then drop it" style.
anyways not a why can't we forum .
its is a whats the first few steps forum.
zainale wrote: anyways not a why can't we forum .
its is a whats the first few steps forum.
Sorry.
First few steps from where? If you're just inventing the concept for the first time, your first steps are probably going to look like old chinese fire lances.
Short range, fire and shrapnel on the end of a stick.
A lot of breakthroughs that took hundreds of years to invent in real life can be sped along with magic and fantastical materials: Adamantine in place of modern steel, Alchemical propellant in place of modern propellant, sky-high magically enhanced Craft checks to duplicate precision-machined components, magically-enhanced INT, etc. Rifling wouldn't take long to come up with for a genius inventor, especially since the principle was known to work with arrows (twisting the fletching to make the arrow spin).
thejeff wrote: "Off to races" is a bit strong. Gunpowder dates back to roughly the 10th century, but didn't reach flintlocks for 700 years. Yeah, it was useful throughout the period, but didn't become dominant until hundreds of years after somebody figured out the explosive part. Nor was it just better metallurgy, though that was certainly a big factor. There were a lot of conceptual advances along the way.
As you say, PF firearms are weird. Conceptually flintlocks, but firing much more like later guns. 8-10 rounds per minute from a musket is higher than most estimates I've seen. 3 is more common. Maybe 4 for elite troops under good conditions. Which is why flintlocks were weapons for armies and mass volleys, not for small scale close fights like PCs get into - other than in the "fire the loaded gun, then drop it" style.
It was almost entirely metallurgy. Gunpowder met the warfare technology and metalworking of Europe in the 13th century. Immediately, cannons were used in battle as stationary weapons and siege weapons. In the 14th century guns became movable and smaller as metal walls are thinned and worked into pipes. By the 15th century, hand carried guns were common use in Europe unseating crossbows as the dangerous weapon you can arm a peasant with. By the time flintlocks were a thing (18th century) the gun had been the weapon to use in warfare for centuries. The flintlock is the turning point in reliability and distribution that put the final nail in the coffin for armor.
Flintlocks were fired at incredible rates from long distances when a solider was stationary, the 3-4 per round number was from warfare in the 1600s where it was inaccurate and took a long time to fire. Flintlocks are faster than crossbows, though slower than longbows - but the ammo is fired in straight lines making aiming easier and the ammo hits much harder than a longbow.
And flintlocks are famously skirmishing weapons used by criminals and police in every-day confrontations and not just in rank and file warfare. While golden age pirates are presented as using flintlocks, they actually predated the flintlock by about 100 years.
So yes, gunpowder predates the mechanical technology required to make the gun. Pig Iron wasn't even made in Europe until the 15th century and blast furnaces for smelting steel didn't come around until the 16th century.
There's little reason to not combine guns in fantasy if you want to reflect the middle ages at all.
Athaleon wrote: A lot of breakthroughs that took hundreds of years to invent in real life can be sped along with magic and fantastical materials: Adamantine in place of modern steel, Alchemical propellant in place of modern propellant, sky-high magically enhanced Craft checks to duplicate precision-machined components, magically-enhanced INT, etc. Rifling wouldn't take long to come up with for a genius inventor, especially since the principle was known to work with arrows (twisting the fletching to make the arrow spin). Rifling was actually invented long before it was able to be practically used.
The problem was the rifling quickly got fouled by the powder and the barrel had to be cleaned between shots, slowing rate of fire dramatically. From the already slow musket rate!
It was the development of a new type of bullet that let rifles replace smoothbore muskets. As far as I know that didn't actually rely on new tech in the sense of stronger metals or better propellant, just a different design.
I guess you can always handwave "genius" and let him invent everything all at once. Unsatisfying to me, though.
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If it hasn't been noted already, firearms were developed in Alkenstar on Golarion, precisely because they whole place is a dead magic zone.
If you had easy access to magic, it's unlikely you would bother to make something so complicated in the first place, which is why firearms are supposed to be rare in the game world.
However, Golarion's technology level just isn't consistent with the way firearm technology developed on earth.
They have the ability to make fine articulated armor, which means their metal working is sufficient.
All they really need is to realize that certain substances can make a very powerful explosion and have the proper idea of putting that explosion in a pipe with a projectile.
So the only plausible reason that they isn't really done on a large scale, is magic removes the emphasis for doing so.
(That and mechanically guns suck in this game unless you're a gunslinger.)
Simplest answer?
Bomb-raw explosive.
Frag bomb (ie- bits of metal added to the bomb to shred everything)
Some kind of mortar based around frag (ie- explosive in a tube, firing out previous nastiness; halfway to a aquebus- suggested mostly since it is random metal rather than proper ammo). One use and very very stupid (because they have the tendency to explode)
Cannon
Miniturized canon (ie- gun).
This seems like a fairly basic progression , some of which is already a 'thing' with nongunslinger classes. You can say that the first two steps are already completed and done with- alchemists made boom booms that are good. You can have those as part of the setting, well established, and being around for decades.
You can go straight to mortars as 'a weird thing they introduced a few years ago'. Then have cannon as the thing that the kingdom has been developing in secret to do thing like take on dragons.
With that, you can then finally have actual small fire weapons as masterpieces created by the people developing the cannons, but they haven't been fully implemented since they are far, far harder to produce (an actual problem with guns- cannons were just easier to make, since you can make a big tough thing that can survive explosions, with only minimal concerns of weight- hand weapons need to be relatively light and thus very strong). You can make muskets and pistols as unique boss loot.
The thing to remember with the 400-700 development timeline mentioned here is that firearm technology was not pursued in many areas that had it. No one cared because bows and crossbows were better than early firearms. Assume Pathfinder style settings have the metalworking needed in place, Platemail is available in most every city, magical and rare metals exist and are available for those who want them. Like on Earth all it would take is someone with the money and interest to see how far they could take the concept. Maybe the use of thunderstones and tubes to launch darts was a drunken past time of some young noble turned Duke. Now the Duke remembers that old game and wants to see how far he can develop the concept. He could have a working firearm in just a few years if he is willing to pay some people full time to work on it. Early firearm makers experimented with all kinds of things too, bullet shape, breech loading... it didnt work here because metallurgy had to catch up but your typical pathfinder setting could make something out of mithril or adamantium pretty easily.
thejeff wrote: Athaleon wrote: A lot of breakthroughs that took hundreds of years to invent in real life can be sped along with magic and fantastical materials: Adamantine in place of modern steel, Alchemical propellant in place of modern propellant, sky-high magically enhanced Craft checks to duplicate precision-machined components, magically-enhanced INT, etc. Rifling wouldn't take long to come up with for a genius inventor, especially since the principle was known to work with arrows (twisting the fletching to make the arrow spin). Rifling was actually invented long before it was able to be practically used.
The problem was the rifling quickly got fouled by the powder and the barrel had to be cleaned between shots, slowing rate of fire dramatically. From the already slow musket rate!
It was the development of a new type of bullet that let rifles replace smoothbore muskets. As far as I know that didn't actually rely on new tech in the sense of stronger metals or better propellant, just a different design.
I guess you can always handwave "genius" and let him invent everything all at once. Unsatisfying to me, though. It's not as much of a stretch if primitive guns already exist. It wouldn't take a genius to figure out that a gun could be reloaded faster if ball, wad, and powder could be loaded as a single unit, for example, and that breech loading would speed it up further. The technological limitations that held it back can, again, be worked around with fantasy elements. Alchemical primer ("just" mix up a substance that explodes when struck) skips over all the 'locks right to the percussion cap. Alchemical propellant might even skip metal cartridges and go right to caseless. IRL it did not take very long to go from metallic cartridges to manual repeaters to self-loading repeaters.
I was thinking of making a steampunk-esque campaign world that included more advanced firearms, and figured "what would alchemy come up with".
Instead of gunpowder, I figured alchemy might be able to come up with an alternative similar to C4: a normally inert substance (checmical? clay?) that only explodes when coming into contact with silver or mithral.
Thus, you could "set off" bullets, explosives, etc, by having a trigger that drives a piece of silver or mithral into the substance.
Give it it's own set of drawbacks and benefits.
This is if you want to make this fantasy guns instead of "replicating the real world" guns.
Kaisoku wrote: I was thinking of making a steampunk-esque campaign world that included more advanced firearms, and figured "what would alchemy come up with".
Instead of gunpowder, I figured alchemy might be able to come up with an alternative similar to C4: a normally inert substance (checmical? clay?) that only explodes when coming into contact with silver or mithral.
Thus, you could "set off" bullets, explosives, etc, by having a trigger that drives a piece of silver or mithral into the substance.
Give it it's own set of drawbacks and benefits.
This is if you want to make this fantasy guns instead of "replicating the real world" guns.
a gun like that would be cool might even have some sort of cone dmg out the front of the gun. a down side of it might be that you don't know when the whole gun is going to explode and kill you.of coarse you might be able to counter that if your a wizard with the mend spell.
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