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So, Hanspur, the river rat, is a patron deity of the river kingdoms, and has a morally neutral alignment that seems to fit well with the six river freedoms. However, there's one tenet in his faith in which a faithful travels the river with someone else, only to drown them when they least expect it.
That sounds pretty evil to me, so why isn't Hanspur evil?
I suppose because you dont have to drown an innocent you could choose to drown an evil person as a means of justice knowing them to be evil. Not a good act but not necessarily evil?
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The description didn't seem to have any sort of reason to kill them other than to kill them. Most good deities that order their people to kill explain stuff like "Kill undead because undead are evil" or "kill villains because villains are evil" stuff like that.
But with Hanspur? Nope. It's just "Travel with someone, then murder them one night because I said so."
Neutral Deities can have evil followers, presumably the good and neutral aligned ones just go with an animal sacrifice. Similar to how cow drivers would sacrifice a weak animal at a water crossing to distract certain predators.
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But that's not what this is, it's "murder a person you travel with" for s~#$s and giggles.
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His priests have no set attire, but tend to wear short-legged pants and waterproofed clothing such as ponchos (which double as tents or small sails), and often go barefoot. Most are proficient fishermen. They make sacrifices to their god by drowning animals, as well as criminals—usually just the convicted, but particularly zealous and impatient worshipers are not known for being so discerning.
I don't know what you are looking at, but animals and crimanals is what I see.
I'm with Valantrix. I don't have the book in front of me right now, but I recently read up on Hanspur, and I don't remember anything about murder.
Where are you getting this? What book? What context?
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Guide to the River Kingdoms and the Pathfinder Wiki
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Yeah, apparently the nixed the whole "must murder someone you travel with" commandment in ISG. For obvious reasons.
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Hanspur is intended to be a deity who "rides the line close" as far as being evil. He's definately more evil than good, but he's still, for now, neutral. That does mean that he has evil worshipers, and it's those who do the drowning. In theory there would or could be an oppositional sect in his church that tends toward neutral good and opposes the evil side with a schism type thing... but that's not yet something that's happening in his faith. Yet.
(IF we wrote it as "all worshipers of Hanspur are expected to drown someone now and then as proof of faith" or something like that, then that's an error in the writing that should have been caught and corrected in development, and I apologize for that.)
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They also nixed sacrificing unwanted infants too.
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James Jacobs wrote: Hanspur is intended to be a deity who "rides the line close" as far as being evil. He's definately more evil than good, but he's still, for now, neutral. That does mean that he has evil worshipers, and it's those who do the drowning. In theory there would or could be an oppositional sect in his church that tends toward neutral good and opposes the evil side with a schism type thing... but that's not yet something that's happening in his faith. Yet.
(IF we wrote it as "all worshipers of Hanspur are expected to drown someone now and then as proof of faith" or something like that, then that's an error in the writing that should have been caught and corrected in development, and I apologize for that.)
Thanks for the response!
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Well, that certainly clears it up. I read about The River Kingdoms and Hanspur recently in the Inner Sea World Guide and Inner Sea Gods while working on the back story for my latest PFS PC. No wonder I missed the additional detail - I didn't even know the River Kingdoms had its own book!
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For the same reason Nethys, Gozreh and aeons get away with Neutral: Non-mortals don't really follow the PC rules for alignment. ;P
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I am putting together a realm set in the River Kingdoms for my campaign, and they actually have a priest of Hanspur as their executioner. Death by drowning is the purest death, you see, the water washes away all sin. As far as the executioner is concerned, he is doing the evildoers a favour.
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Hanspur is also an excellent deity if you want to be neutral but channel negative energy. Death and Travel domains together is nice.
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Rysky wrote: Yeah, apparently the nixed the whole "must murder someone you travel with" commandment in ISG. For obvious reasons. Money is probably a good one; recruitment a close second. Hard to have a respectable religion if you have river priests that drown paying customers looking for a boat ride or young novices that are traveling to come join your ranks... :P
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Kobold Cleaver wrote: For the same reason Nethys, Gozreh and aeons get away with Neutral: Non-mortals don't really follow the PC rules for alignment. ;P They do the whole "good and evil, law and chaos in equal measure" form of neutrality. As far as I can tell, the Hanspur clerics in those early books don't do enough "good" things to offset the random acts of murder
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I don't know... one of the Six River Freedoms says don't block any river or any road, and I'm guessing the presence of Hanspur followers had a big input into developing this whole regional mindframe... it's pretty Chaotic Goodish to me, as none of the River Kingdom rulers dare making roadblocks or collecting tolls, and it has made farmers into some kind of upper class in that region (again, pretty Dalelands / Chaotic Goodish approach if you ask me)
The only reason Hanspur is CN instead of CG, IMO, is because of those occasional drownings I think. And my guess is that they don't target good farmers and merchant "regulars", but just the occasional tourist jerk or a-hole. I think if you're easy going and friendly and not overly Lawful they probably leave you alone. If you're a sanctimonious Lawful type on one of Hanspur's followers' barge, sleep in shifts...
Addendum: if you're not a cleric or other divine caster of Hanspur (i.e. just a lay worshipper, like the CG rogue in my campaign), I think you're in general happy with shooting a seagull into the river once in a while to pay tribute...
Or, blatantly, the Drowned God of Game of Thrones, less the sacking and pillaging! :)
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Mavrickindigo wrote: Kobold Cleaver wrote: For the same reason Nethys, Gozreh and aeons get away with Neutral: Non-mortals don't really follow the PC rules for alignment. ;P They do the whole "good and evil, law and chaos in equal measure" form of neutrality. A form of neutrality that is only allowed for non-mortals. With mortals, someone who burns down one orphanage and saves another is just Lawful Evil. :)
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Hanspur was updated in Inner Sea Faiths and that particular tenet is more closely examined and explained. You might be interested to read up on it :)
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blast! another freaggin' book I now need to buy
question: is the Hanspur stuff COOOOL or just... 'ok'?
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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
It moved me from, "Oh, Hanspur," to "Oh! Hanspur!"
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[grumbles again] grrrr... book ordered... [/grumbles again]
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