Please help polish or demolish this Gorumite Monk

[kadance]

I'm trying to polish this build to its maximum efficiency.

N Human
Barbarian (Wild Rager) 1
Monk (Maneuver Master, Weapon Adept) 1-2
Barbarian (Wild Rager) 2
Fighter (Siegebreaker) 1-2
Sentinel 1-6+

Starting with the Adopted trait allows you to take Enlightened Warrior and progress in both Monk and Barbarian with a True Neutral alignment.

Feats:

1st level: Power Attack [for Cornugon Smash]

Human Feat: Weapon Focus (Greatsword) [prereq for Sentinel]

Monk Bonus Feat: Improved Unarmed Strike

Monk Bonus Feat: Improved Overrun [prereq for Elephant Stomp]

Weapon Adept Feat: Perfect Strike [just gravy]

3rd level: Deific Obedience [prereq for Sentinel]

Monk Bonus Feat: Scorpion Style [prereq for Gorgon's Fist]

Weapon Adept Feat: Weapon Focus (Improved Unarmed Strike) [could be any monk weapon]

5th level: Dazzling Display [prereq for Shatter Defenses]

7th level: Shatter Defenses [setup for Medusa's Wrath]

Sentinel Feat: Spiked Destroyer [Swift action armor spike attack after bull rush]

9th level: Cornugon Smash [triggers Shatter Defenses]

11th Level: Gorgon's Fist [prereq for Medusa's Wrath]

13th Level: Medusa's Fist [two bonus attacks if everything goes right]

15th Level: Elephant Stomp [an immediate action unarmed strike]

Key Class Abilities

Flurry of Maneuvers:

At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action. The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers, though all combat maneuver checks suffer a –2 penalty when using a flurry. At 8th level, a maneuver master may attempt a second additional combat maneuver, with an additional –3 penalty on combat maneuver checks. At 15th level, a maneuver master may attempt a third additional combat maneuver, with an additional –7 penalty on combat maneuver checks. This ability replaces flurry of blows.

Wild Fighting:

At 2nd level, even when not raging, wild ragers often fight with reckless, savage abandon. A wild rager using the full-attack action can make one extra attack per round at her highest base attack bonus. Until the beginning of her next turn, however, she takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and –4 penalty to AC. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.

Breaker Rush:

At 1st level, a siegebreaker can attempt bull rush or overrun combat maneuvers without provoking attacks of opportunity. When he performs either combat maneuver, he deals an amount of bludgeoning damage equal to his Strength bonus (minimum 1). If he has Improved Bull Rush or Improved Overrun, the damage dealt by the appropriate maneuver increases by 2 and he adds any enhancement bonus from his armor or shield (though such enhancement bonuses do not stack, if both armor and shield are magic). This ability replaces the feat gained at 1st level.

Breaker Momentum:

At 2nd level, when a siegebreaker successfully bull rushes a foe, he can attempt an overrun combat maneuver check against that foe as a free action. This ability replaces the feat gained at 2nd level.

Sentinel Boon #2:

Two-Handed Smash (Ex) If you make a full attack while wielding a two-handed melee weapon, you may make a single unarmed strike in addition to your normal attacks. In essence, after you complete your two-handed weapon attacks, you smash with your elbow, kick out with a foot, or make some other unarmed strike against an opponent. This bonus attack is made at your highest base attack bonus, and provokes an attack of opportunity if you lack the Improved Unarmed Strike feat or a similar ability. If you’re Medium, you deal 1d6 points of damage with this unarmed strike; if you’re Small, you deal 1d4 points of damage. Add half your Strength bonus to the damage dealt. The attack roll for the unarmed strike is subject to the normal penalties for two-weapon fighting unless you have the feats to reduce these penalties.

I think each full attack action should yield:
1) the normal number of attacks with a two-handed weapon (by Base Attack Bonus)
2) an additional attack for Wild Fighting,
3) an additional unarmed strike for Two-Handed Smash (which will be at -8 for being an off-hand light weapon without two-weapon fighting),
4) an extra combat maneuver for Flurry of Maneuvers which will be a Bull Rush
4b) which will trigger Breaker Rush (Strength modifier as bludgeoning damage)
4b2) which will trigger Spiked Destroyer as a swift action (attack with Armor Spikes)
4c) which will trigger Breaker Momentum (free action Overrun)
4c2) which will trigger Breaker Rush (Strength modifier as bludgeoning damage plus 2 for Improved Overrun plus any armor enhancement bonus)
4d) which will trigger Elephant Stomp as an immediate action for another unarmed strike
5) assuming any of the attacks was using Power Attack, Cornugon Smash allows a free intimidate check which, via Shatter Defenses, triggers Medusa's Wrath and a final pair of unarmed strikes.

Does this all work together?

Things I'd like to squeeze in:
The Snowstride Regional trait for the ability to bull rush better.
Two-Weapon Fighting to decrease the penalty on the Two-Handed Smash unarmed strike.
Improved Bull Rush to increase the damage from Breaker Rush
If there's a way to get a free Bull Rush attempt every full attack action (there's not enough rounds of Rage to rely on the knockback rage power) I might use the Sohei archetype rather than Maneuver Master and Weapon Adept to net one additional attack with a double chained kama

Advice that would be helpful:
A) Do these feats and abilities work how I think they do?
B) Is there a more efficient class combination?
C) Which class(es) to advance from 13-20?
D) Is the feat arrangement optimal?
E) (less importantly) Any key pieces of gear?

[Casual Viking]

Note that a succesful Elephant Stomp also knocks the enemy prone.

I don't think Unarmed Strikes are valid for your bonus Weapon Focus, but it doesn't really matter.

[Bob Bob Bob]

So I can tell you right now, unless you have some magic to fix the defensive issues, this is not a good idea. Also never ever use Wild Rager. It's very bad. As to whether it all works, I'll have to run through it in order.

So full attack, +x/y/z.
Extra attack from wild fighting +x, -2 to all further attacks.
Extra attack from Two-Handed Smash +(x-a-2). It only says this attack takes two-weapon fighting penalties but in theory it should apply to everything. a is whatever your two-weapon fighting penalty is.
Flurry of Maneuevers combat maneuver +x+1-2-2. All further maneuvers take -2.
Spiked Destroyer as a swift at +x-2.
Breaker Momentum as a free at +x+1-2-2.
You cannot use Elephant Stomp as you already used your swift for Spiked Destroyer. An immediate action on your turn counts as your swift.
Cornugun/Shatter Defenses/Medusa's Wrath should work, both attacks will be at +x-2.

Now the downsides.
If you use rage and kill something make a Will save or be confused.
-4 to AC for the Wild Rager attack. -2 if you also rage.
You lose 1 BAB to Monk (except for the maneuvers).
Nobody takes damage from overrun. "When you attempt to overrun a target, it can choose to avoid you, allowing you to pass through its square without requiring an attack."
You can't wear armor or use a shield and use Flurry of Maneuvers. Not sure where you put armor spikes without armor.
Anything with DR is entirely going to shut down the bonus damage from Breaker Rush. Probably the unarmed strike too, unless you buy an AoMF or the Bodywraps.

In the end you're getting a full attack, one extra attack, an unarmed strike that's probably useless (especially without TWF), a bull rush you need to trigger the rest of the chain that's heavily penalized, an attack you can't possibly make with Flurry of Maneuvers, and a combat maneuver that can literally be ignored by the target of the maneuver. At the higher levels you finally get an extra two attacks... which are the same terrible unarmed strike, though possibly at a better bonus. It's... not good. In return you're naked and actively tanking your own AC. You need Str (basis of most of your damage), Dex and Wis (your only AC), and Con. Your Will and Reflex suck and because you repeatedly dip it stays low. Fractional saves help here but they're not standard.

I'd recommend looking at Shield Slam. Free bull rush on every attack with a shield, trigger Breaker Rush all the time. Monk can't use armor and shield (usually) so you should probably just replace it entirely, if you do your saves will completely suck though. If you replace all the starting levels with Siegebreaker you'd get weapon and armor training which are currently pretty solid.

Short answer? You built a one-trick pony and the one trick isn't that great. In return you've turned yourself into a glass cannon, which is bad. When you can't use your trick you do still have "full attack" but so does literally everything else. If you blow the bull rush, nothing after it triggers.

[kadance]

Casual Viking wrote:

I don't think Unarmed Strikes are valid for your bonus Weapon Focus, but it doesn't really matter.

Re-reading the archetype, you are correct. The ability that grants the feat states it must be "with one of his monk weapons." I suppose you could argue whether that refers to weapon proficiencies granted by the monk class or weapons with the monk special quality, but it is inconsequential. Still, good catch.

Bob Bob Bob wrote:

[...]this is not a good idea.

Agreed, but I'm not going for a good idea.

Bob Bob Bob wrote:

Also never ever use Wild Rager. It's very bad.

For a full barbarian, absolutely, but as a two level dip it's not so bad. The will save is "DC 10 + the barbarian’s level + the barbarian’s Charisma modifier." So, with two level of barbarian and a tanked Charisma, DC 10 or 11. Mind, you should still keep an enemy between you and your friends.

Bob Bob Bob wrote:

You cannot use Elephant Stomp as you already used your swift for Spiked Destroyer. An immediate action on your turn counts as your swift.

Good catch. I was mistaken in thinking that the immediate action always took up your next turn's swift action.

Bob Bob Bob wrote:

If you use rage and kill something make a Will save or be confused.

It'll be a low DC, but eventually you'll fail. Keeping adjacent to an enemy means you'll do what you want, keep attacking it for the remainder of the first turn. You get a new save at the end of the second and succeeding turns. It's unlikely you'll kill everyone before making such a low save... probably.

Bob Bob Bob wrote:

Nobody takes damage from overrun.

You're forgetting the last sentence of Improved Overrun "Targets of your overrun attempt may not chose to avoid you."

Bob Bob Bob wrote:

You can't wear armor or use a shield and use Flurry of Maneuvers.

Flurry of Blows, sure, gotta be armor-less (unless you're a Sohei), but Flurry of Maneuvers doesn't include that bit of verbiage, so you can wear that stylish full plate you've been eyeing in the corner of ye olde smithy. 'Course you'll have to forgo Spiked Destroyer to get the overrun attempt in as you previously pointed out.

Bob Bob Bob wrote:

Anything with DR is entirely going to shut down the bonus damage from Breaker Rush. Probably the unarmed strike too, unless you buy an AoMF or the Bodywraps.

Anything with DR 10 maybe. You're still looking at Strength Modifier +2 +armor enhancement, so you should be doing 10 or more.

Bob Bob Bob wrote:

Your Will and Reflex suck and because you repeatedly dip it stays low.

At 12th, (not sure what class to pick up after that), you have +12/+5/+5 base saves. Barbarian and Fighter have +8/+4/+4. Dipping usually increases saving throws since the good saves are front loaded.

Bob Bob Bob wrote:

I'd recommend looking at Shield Slam.

That's actually how I got started on this build! In fact, you can stack Thunderstriker and Siegebreaker archetypes, but the most recent FAQ neuters the Thunderstriker's signature ability to shield bash while wielding a two-handed weapon THE WHOLE POINT OF THE ARCHETYPE, OH POWERS THAT BE! any chance this has been reversed?

Another weak point is anything immune to fear/intimidate which blocks shatter defenses.

Considering wrapping this all up with Order of the Sword Gendarme Cavalier with Horse Master and Mounted Skirmish to increase the chance of getting a full attack off every turn.

[Imbicatus]

kadance wrote:

Bob Bob Bob wrote:

You can't wear armor or use a shield and use Flurry of Maneuvers.

Flurry of Blows, sure, gotta be armor-less (unless you're a Sohei), but Flurry of Maneuvers doesn't include that bit of verbiage,...

Except the limitation on Flurry isn't in Flurry of Blows, it's in the Monk Weapon and Armor proficiency section, which is unchanged for the manuever master.

Expect table variation on this.

[Chess Pwn]

kadance wrote:

For a full barbarian, absolutely, but as a two level dip it's not so bad. The will save is "DC 10 + the barbarian’s level + the barbarian’s Charisma modifier." So, with two level of barbarian and a tanked Charisma, DC 10 or 11.

You're missing the errata for this. "she must attempt a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the barbarian's level + the barbarian's Constitution modifier) or become confused." And since you're raging your Con mod is higher than normal. So you're correct that it's lower for a dip than a full Barb, but it's a lot higher than it used to be.

[Chess Pwn]

Flurry of Maneuvers (Ex)

At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action. The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers, though all combat maneuver checks suffer a –2 penalty when using a flurry.

At 8th level, a maneuver master may attempt a second additional combat maneuver, with an additional –3 penalty on combat maneuver checks.

At 15th level, a maneuver master may attempt a third additional combat maneuver, with an additional –7 penalty on combat maneuver checks.

A maneuver master loses this ability when wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load.

This ability replaces flurry of blows.

[Bob Bob Bob]

The problem with Wild Rager is both a mechanics and an actual play problem. The mechanics bit is that you're tanking your AC while not picking up the later defenses (DR specifically) of the barbarian. The "in play" bit is that if you kill something you get to play russian roulette with your d20 and hope you don't blow it. If you're in the middle of enemies, fine, if that was the last enemy you've made a glass cannon and pointed it at your teammates. It's the dominate problem, but self-inflicted. It's also a bunch of extra dice rolling you need to remember to do.

Totally missed the Improved Overrun bit, that helps... somewhat. Brings up a different question though. Can you actually overrun if you full attack? Because overrun requires you to move through their square. I'm guessing that's what Elephant Stomp is for?

The DR problem isn't that it stops all damage, it's that it stops damage at all and I don't think you have any way to bypass it. You're hitting with 2-5 primary weapon attacks, one @#$%^& unarmed strike, minor static damage, slightly better static damage, same @#$%^& unarmed strike, then two more of that. That's 2-5 attacks, 4 unarmed strikes, and 2 static damage (assuming they all hit). DR 5/- reduces your damage by 40-55. DR 5/silver reduces it by 30. Ditto anything but bludgeoning. Now, Breaker Rush may cover this (it does say enhancement bonus) but you'd have to spend money separately to cover the unarmed strikes. If we added the armor spikes there'd be even more costs.

My issue with saves is you don't get a save booster (don't dip long enough) and without monk you'd lose 3/3/3, giving you 9/2/2. Monk is the only thing padding those numbers up to okay. And since you were planning on wearing armor, you probably don't focus on Wis either. You're probably also just going to jump to another new class with a bad Will save afterwards, so you're never going to pick up a save booster and Will will still be a weak save.

The weak point isn't Shatter Defenses. It's the initial bull rush. If you blow that the rest of the chain fails. If you fail your first intimidate, you get another one for every attack that hits. If they're immune, you lose two unarmed strikes. If you blow the bull rush, you lose one unarmed strike and two static damages. That's more damage than the two unarmed strikes (unless you have some way to boost the unarmed damage I'm not seeing).

Now, there is a good way to use just unarmed strikes currently. Pummeling Style is Clustered Shots, but for unarmed strikes. Pummeling Charge is pounce, for unarmed strike full attacks.

Basically, I think you're jumping through a lot of hoops for not a lot of effect. Let's go with a simple Siegebreaker 6 Sentinel 6 using a shield and Shield Slam. You get a full attack (3 attacks), bull rush on each, 3 static damages, then everything else that follows the bull rush. You lose the Wild Rager extra attack (you can keep it if you want) and your saves suck a little more but in return you get three chances to trigger the bull rush (and a lot more damage). Additionally, if you can actually get them up against a wall you can knock them prone for an easier time hitting. Similarly, you could build a Monk with some form of Flurry and go Pummeling Style, Vicious Stomp, and Greater Trip and get a bunch of unarmed AoO for much the same effect while keeping things a lot simpler.

[kadance]

Chess Pwn, took me awhile to find those "errata." I had checked the actual FAQ page and seen nothing, but I see those lines in the PRD.

Bob x3, I understand that this is jumping through a lot of hoops; that's the point. It's a puzzle, and I'm trying to make pieces fit. There are plenty of better builds out there.

Thanks for your help, both of you. Back to the drawing board with Sohei instead of Maneuver Master.

[Bob Bob Bob]

Sure, no, I understand this is for fun, but the concept isn't "this exact build" but something like "get a bunch of attacks with Breaker Rush adding on" or "get as many melee weapon attacks as possible", right? Or maybe just "make Breaker Rush useful". You're okay changing the build if it helps you and you are interested in this as more than a thought experiment (otherwise you wouldn't care about whether parts of it can be shut down). So I'm just trying to be thorough. Good luck with it.

[Paladin of Gorum]

Don't lose faith, brother. If I can become a Paladin, then anything is possible in service to Our Lord In Iron.