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Don’t think I haven’t read and searched throughout the web for answers, but most, if not all of my questions where unanswered by forums and rule boards and several are probably somewhat houseruled by everyone.
It’s going to be a long read and there won’t be a tl;dr since there are going to be a lot of questions.
And if you know those questions have be answered by official side, please link away because I haven't found anything to those questions that are coming here ^^
I'll see how far I can get. Next time you post such a wall of text though, try using some bold to mark titles. Makes it easier to read :)
Starting slowly with the pinned condition:
You can give a creature the pinned condition by successfully making a grapple check against a creature that you’re already grappling.
A pinned creature can make a combat maneuver, or escape artist check to escape the grapple.
Which means a pinned creature can never become the grappler right away? (the one controlling the grapple)
Unclear. Breaking free from a pin seems to be just a special case of breaking out of a grapple, so I think Yes, you can.
Also: A grapple check is (usually) a standard action and without a bigger investment in feats you can only make 1 grapple check per round. Successfully doing a grapple check allows you to give a creature the pinned status.
However: Does the pinned status continue in all subsequent rounds of grappling, or do you need to make a grapple check to pin the creature each round, thus never being able to damage, or move it around? (And I’m not asking about tying someone up, I’m talking about an actual grappling combat without means of tying up)
Maintaining the pin is a special case of maintaining the grapple. You don't have to re-establish the pin every round. On a succesful maintain check you can do damage/tie up. With greater grapple, maintaining a pin becomes cheaper because it's maintaining a grapple.
Grappling and Attack of Opportunity:
When you have the grappled condition you can’t make Attacks of Opportunity. It’s not noted for the pinned status, but I guess the “is limited in the actions…” is sufficient enough to not let pinned creatures make AoO.
Yes.
Now there are some creatures/class powers/abilities (like grab) that say that you don’t get the grappled condition yourself while being the dominant grappler and/or can make AoO.
To be more precise, a creature with the Grab ability can, instead of performing a normal grapple, try to grapple with only one appendage. If it does so it gets a -20 on the grapple check (and subsequent maintenance) but doesn't gain the grappled condition.
So when the grappled creature tries to make a grapple check to escape your grapple AND doesn’t has any feat/ability/spell that prevents it from provoking AoO when doing a grapple check, do you get an AoO when it just tries to escape the grapple it is in with you?
EDIT: Found the answer, trying to escape a grapple doesn’t provoke AoO but other actions like disarm, or dirty trick would, if you don’t have the corresponding feats.
Correct.
Tying someone up:
The flow chart says that you can attempt to tie someone up you have grappled at a -10 penalty. When you fail, you’re still in the grappled condition.
According to that I come to believe, that you make the grapple check to maintain the grapple like normal and then make ANOTHER grapple check at -10 penalty to tie someone up. Is that correct this way? Because I would’ve thought that you’re supposed to make a “maintain grapple check” with a -10 penalty and when you succeed you tie your victim up, if you don’t succeed you lose grip while you fiddle around with the rope.
Correct.
The Rake ability:
I guess that’s an easy one. According to text
“In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two free claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe“
That means the monster makes a grapple check as a standard action, dealing the damage of the limb that made the grapple (so for a tiger, either bite or claw) AND getting 2 more attacks for free (at a -2 penalty due to being in a grapple?) against the grappled target.
Correct.
Constrict:
When you or a monster have the constrict ability you deal with EVERY grapple check the noted damage. So in case you have to use the pin action each round to continue the pinned status you also deal damage to your foe, when you have the constrict ability. Right?
Correct.
Damaging in a grapple:
You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
Does that mean in a grapple I can deal nonlethal weapon damage without incurring the -4 penalty for trying to deal nonlethal with a lethal weapon?
It would appear so. You're not making a separate attack roll so don't apply a -4 to hit.
About armor spikes. In the armor page it’s noted they deal “extra piercing damage on grapple attacks” What means “extra” comes the 1d6 damage on top of a natural/unarmed attack? And are the spikes only dealing damage when using the damage action? Like not dealing damage, when you pin your opponent aka hugging tight?
This one is quite vague. CRB and UE use the same text. I understand it to mean the following:
- When first establishing a grapple ("a grapple attack") they do extra damage if you manage to establish the grapple. But if you're not proficient, they make that harder to accomplish.- When you're maintaining a grapple and choose to do damage, you could use the spikes instead of another weapon, natural weapon or unarmed strike.
Special Monster attacks:
The advanced hangman tree.
When the tree grapples with its vines it doesn’t gain the grappled condition.
But. A grapple check is still a standard action for it, so instead of flailing adventurers with 3 devastating vine whips it has to use a standard action to maintain the grapple it has on one unlucky adventurer if it wants to keep her grappled?
Yes. Round 2 is when it needs to decide who to swallow and who to let go.
Grab special Attack == improved grapple?
No. They're different abilities with different names and mechanics.
Many monsters can make a free grapple check when hitting with a certain limb without provoking AoO and gain a +4 bonus on that grapple check. But what about simply STARTING a grapple like normally? For example when the foe has so high AC that the grabbing creature decides to just directly start a grapple, circumventing the AC it can’t possibly hit and instead target the CMD of its foe? Does the creature with the grab ability provoke an AoO when it tries to start a grapple without hitting its foe prior?
Not provoking an AoO is listed as a side effect of using Grab as follow-up to a successful attack. So it only gets that benefit when it uses it that way.
The +4 bonus is a separate paragraph and it always gains that, regardless of how the grapple is established.
Also if a druid/ranger wants their companion to be a grappling monster and get them improved/greater grapple (after increasing the INT of the companion to 3) does having natural attacks that can grab already meet the prerequisite of the feat unarmed strike, or would one still need to get: improved unarmed strike > improved grapple > greater grapple?
It needs Improved Unarmed Strike. The Grab ability is not listed as an alternative way to satisfy the prerequisite.
Improved/Greater grapple and spells/items that explicitly increase your CMD against grapple attempts:
Reading through threads and discussions I came to the conclusion it’s not hard to start a grapple, but I came to the experience it’s hard to prevent the foe from ESCAPING it, since it’s a lot harder to accumulate bonus for CMD than for CMB, even though the CMD does add the DEX bonus (or penalty) as well. Especially when you’re not a Full BAB class without the combat defence training.
That's generally true, but it matters a lot who you're grappling. Most 3/4 BAB classes have a good shot at keeping a wizard grappled, but not a barbarian.
Now here’s the quiz question. Improved grapple increases your CMB for grapple by 2 and your CMD AGAINST grapple by 2.
Now you’re the active grappler and your foe tries to escape you. The rules explicitly state “make a combat maneuver, or escape artist check against the CMD of your opponent.”
In case of the combat maneuver I would say, yes you get the +2 to your CMD since a success in that combat maneuver check could make your foe becoming the dominant grappler.
But what about when you foe uses Escape Artist? She just wants to get away from you, not grapple you, would you still get the bonus from the feat?
Escape Artist is not a grapple check, so no bonus.
Also the spell grease: Would a Grappler who uses grappling as the main thing to fight profit greatly from being under the effect of a grease spell? Because it raises the CMD against grapple by 10 and would foil any attempt to escape her grip.
No. The bonus is on checks to escape, and to avoid being grappled yourself. The spell is clear on that.
Flanking, cover and ranged attacks:
When you have the grappled condition you can’t make AoO. Thus you don’t threaten adjacent foes and can’t provide flanking bonus to your allies in regards to other surrounding creatures. But what about the creature you’re grappling or that has you grappled right now?
It's not the grappled condition stopping you from flanking; you flank if you could make an attack, provided you had an action. You still flank even if you have no AoOs left this round.
What stops you is that you (probably) used both hands to grapple. If you have some other attack remaining (bite, improved unarmed strike head-but) you can still flank.
Note that you don't have to use both hands, but take a penalty if you don't. And the grappled condition you get as a grappled would still stop you from making AoOs.
The rules say you are adjacent to each other and NOT in the same square like it used to be in 3.5 Does that mean, when you’re grappled by a big ugly monster your friendly rogue can stroll around and sneak attack it in its back? Or does the rogue only get to make the sneak attacks if the ugly monster pins you and loses its DEX bonus to AC? (which is another situation a rogue may deal sneak attack as we know)
No, he can just stroll around.
If the monster pins you, you can't attack it anymore and therefore no longer flank. But if the monster pins you, it still doesn't gain the pinned condition itself, so it doesn't lose Dex. Only you do.
And even the other way around, when you’re the active grappler and have someone grappled, can your party rogue sneak attack your victim, when going into flanking position to you? I know the rogue doesn’t get to sneak attack just for attacking a grappled creature, since it’s only a DEX penalty and not “lose your DEX bonus blablabla” But I’m talking here about getting into flanking position, because normally a grappling creature shouldn’t? be able to provide flanking bonus.
If you still have some attack you can make, despite some/all your hands being busy grappling. Since Improved Unarmed Strike is a prerequisite for Improved Grapple and IUS can be done with kicks and head-buts, this is not uncommon.
Also since you aren’t on top of each other the ranger with Precise shot (no malus for shooting into melee) can fire arrows at her leisure as long as you don’t give the ugly grappling monster soft cover towards the rangers attacks?
Correct.
Finally a practical example of a grapple fight, if I understood the rules right.
The opponents are both half-elf fighters level 5. They took Escape Artist as a class feat with their alternate racial. In the left the brutal grappler, and in the right the agile grappler.
I’m only going to note stats of interest here.
Brutal Grappler:
STR 20+5
DEX 10
BAB 5
AC 10
Feats: Imp Unarmed strike, Imp Grapple, Greater Grapple
Grapple Check: +14
Damage: 1d3+5
CMD: 20 Against grapple: 24
Escape Artist: 8
You probably meant Skill Focus (Escape Artist). Greater Grapple has a BAB +6 prerequisite.
Agile Grappler
STR 10
DEX 20+5
BAB 5
AC 15
Feats: Imp Unarmed strike, Imp Grapple, Greater Grapple, Agile maneuver
Grapple Check: +14
Damage: 1d3
CMD: 20 Against grapple: 24
Escape Artist: 13Round 1: Both grapplers start the round and enter the grapple. Brutal Grappler is the dominant grappler. Both take a -4 penalty to DEX
Brutal Grappler | Agile Grappler
Grapple Check +14 | +12
AC 8 | 13
CMD 18 | 18
CMD grapple 22 | 22
Escape Artist 6 | 11We see right away, that the agile grappler is in a disadvantage here. He has still good chances to break the grapple and become the dominate grappler, but his rolls are worse the moment he’s in a grapple due to the -4 penalty on DEX and his reliance on DEX for his grapple checks (because of agile maneuvers) and with the +5 brutal grappler gets on his next turn for grapple checks he only needs to roll for 3 while the agile grappler needs to beat CMD 22 with his +12 on grapple checks (50% chance)
Round 2: Agile grappler fails to break the grapple and gets pinned by Brutal grappler. Brutal Grappler has -4 DEX, Agile grappler is denied his DEX bonus entirely and a -4 AC malus which also goes to CMD as well according to RAW
Brutal Grappler | Agile Grappler
Grapple Check +14 | +9
AC 8 | 6
CMD 18 | 11
CMD grapple 22 | 15
Escape Artist 6 | 8From now on the battle continues, while the brutal grappler has the battle secured from his side to continue the grapple (as long as not rolling a 1 on one of his two allowed grapple checks per round) the Agile grappler has still a +9 on his grapple checks to beat the CMD of 22 (35% chance) of the Brutal grappler and then both their combat stats revert to normal again.
Now the other way around. The fight starts and the Agile grappler becomes the dominant one.
Round 1: Both grapplers start the round and enter the grapple. Agile Grappler is the dominant grappler. Both take a -4 penalty to DEX
Brutal Grappler | Agile Grappler
Grapple Check +14 | +12
AC 8 | 13
CMD 18 | 18
CMD grapple 22 | 22
Escape Artist 6 | 11Agile grappler is the dominant one and gets a +5 on his next grapple check. However, due to the penalties from being in a grapple he has a harder time maintaining the battle already. Brutal grappler had to roll a 3 to maintain grapple, the Agile grappler needs to roll a 5. Brutal grappler has to beat the CMD 22 with his +14 to grapple checks (60%) chance.
Round 2: Brutal grappler failed to break the grapple (unlucky bastard) and is now pinned. But is this condition so detrimental to him? Because Agile grappler loses his DEX bonus to AC and subsequently to CMD as well.
Brutal Grappler | Agile Grappler
Grapple Check +14 | +12
AC 6 | 10
CMD 16 | 15
CMD grapple 20 | 19
Escape Artist 8 | 11Now here we go where the grappling and especially pin rules become awkward!
Brutal grappler loses 2 to AC in contrast to being grappled before. Why? He doesn’t have the -4 penalty to DEX any more and “just” loses his DEX bonus to AC. Since he had no DEX bonus to begin with he INCREASES his AC and then subtracts the -4 AC malus from being pinned. While the Agile grappler even loses 3! AC because he’s denied his DEX bonus as well when pinning someone.
CMD is the same game. Brutal grappler loses only 2 points in them, while Agile grappler loses 3. The discrepancy becomes even greater the more Agile grappler invests in DEX.
Now comes the burner, the Escape Artist of Brutal Grappler RISES when he gets pinned, instead of grappled. Why? Because Brutal grappler doesn’t have a DEX penalty anymore, so his Escape Artist check actually INCREASES when he’s pinned instead of grappled. But since his Grapple Bonus is higher anyway he doesn't care all that much.
Even worse, now that brutal grappler is pinned it’s actually EASIER! for him to break that grapple from Agile Grappler. He has still a +14 on his grapple check, while Agile Grapplers CMD against grapple dropped to 19. Before he needed to roll a 8 to break the grapple, now it’s only a 5 (75% chance!) that is needed to do the same, even though he’s pinned and in a “much severe” state of grappling and the Agile Grappler still needs to roll a 3 to succeed in maintaining the grapple.But as far as I see it, this is the correct application of the rules?
You seem to be applying the Pinned penalties to the controller as well as the controllee. That's incorrect.
Apart from that, yeah, combat maneuvers favour big hulking monsters.
Starting slowly with the pinned condition:
You can give a creature the pinned condition by successfully making a grapple check against a creature that you’re already grappling.
A pinned creature can make a combat maneuver, or escape artist check to escape the grapple.
Which means a pinned creature can never become the grappler right away? (the one controlling the grapple)
The grappler can make the CMB or Escape Artist check to break the grapple and, if successful, instead of getting free can reverse the grapple. So the initial grapplee is no longer pinned and becomes the grappler. Reversing the grapple is just an alternative result of attempting to break the grapple.
PRD on If You Are Grappled: "If you are grappled, you can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making a combat maneuver check (DC equal to your opponent's CMD; this does not provoke an attack of opportunity) or Escape Artist check (with a DC equal to your opponent's CMD). If you succeed, you break the grapple and can act normally. Alternatively, if you succeed, you can become the grappler, grappling the other creature (meaning that the other creature cannot freely release the grapple without making a combat maneuver check, while you can). "
Also: A grapple check is (usually) a standard action and without a bigger investment in feats you can only make 1 grapple check per round. Successfully doing a grapple check allows you to give a creature the pinned status.
However: Does the pinned status continue in all subsequent rounds of grappling, or do you need to make a grapple check to pin the creature each round, thus never being able to damage, or move it around? (And I’m not asking about tying someone up, I’m talking about an actual grappling combat without means of tying up)
Once you have pinned your opponent as long as you maintain the grapple and they do not escape or reverse it they retain the pinned condition and you may Move, Damage or Tie Up when you maintain in subsesequent rounds.
Grappling and Attack of Opportunity:
When you have the grappled condition you can’t make Attacks of Opportunity. It’s not noted for the pinned status, but I guess the “is limited in the actions…” is sufficient enough to not let pinned creatures make AoO.
Now there are some creatures/class powers/abilities (like grab) that say that you don’t get the grappled condition yourself while being the dominant grappler and/or can make AoO.
So when the grappled creature tries to make a grapple check to escape your grapple AND doesn’t has any feat/ability/spell that prevents it from provoking AoO when doing a grapple check, do you get an AoO when it just tries to escape the grapple it is in with you?
EDIT: Found the answer, trying to escape a grapple doesn’t provoke AoO but other actions like disarm, or dirty trick would, if you don’t have the corresponding feats.
You found the answer
Tying someone up:
The flow chart says that you can attempt to tie someone up you have grappled at a -10 penalty. When you fail, you’re still in the grappled condition.
According to that I come to believe, that you make the grapple check to maintain the grapple like normal and then make ANOTHER grapple check at -10 penalty to tie someone up. Is that correct this way? Because I would’ve thought that you’re supposed to make a “maintain grapple check” with a -10 penalty and when you succeed you tie your victim up, if you don’t succeed you lose grip while you fiddle around with the rope.
You maintain the grapple first. If you don't succeed at maintaining the grapple you do not get to choose to move, damage, pin or tie up. Only after succeeding to maintain the grapple do you choose to Tie Up and then have to make another CMD check at -10.
The Rake ability:
I guess that’s an easy one. According to text
“In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two free claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe“
That means the monster makes a grapple check as a standard action, dealing the damage of the limb that made the grapple (so for a tiger, either bite or claw) AND getting 2 more attacks for free (at a -2 penalty due to being in a grapple?) against the grappled target.
Yes, the creature maintains the grapple and can choose to move, damage, pin or tie up its opponent as normal. In addition it gets two free claw attacks.
Constrict:
When you or a monster have the constrict ability you deal with EVERY grapple check the noted damage. So in case you have to use the pin action each round to continue the pinned status you also deal damage to your foe, when you have the constrict ability. Right?
No, constrict does not require the pinned condition. Anytime a creature with constrict makes a successful grapple check it deals constrict damage. This includes the initial grapple check and when maintaining a grapple.
From the PRD "Constrict (Ex) A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, when it makes a successful grapple check (in addition to any other effects caused by a successful check, including additional damage). The amount of damage is given in the creature's entry and is typically equal to the amount of damage caused by the creature's melee attack."
Damaging in a grapple:
You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
Does that mean in a grapple I can deal nonlethal weapon damage without incurring the -4 penalty for trying to deal nonlethal with a lethal weapon?
About armor spikes. In the armor page it’s noted they deal “extra piercing damage on grapple attacks” What means “extra” comes the 1d6 damage on top of a natural/unarmed attack? And are the spikes only dealing damage when using the damage action? Like not dealing damage, when you pin your opponent aka hugging tight?
Yes, you can deal damage automatically with any of those as a result of maintaining the grapple if you choose the Damage option. The word "extra" in the armor spikes entry is just poor wording. The entry for the damage option under the grappling rules is more clear.
From the PRD "Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.'
The damage you can inflict is equal to any one of those things, including armor spikes.
The advanced hangman tree.
When the tree grapples with its vines it doesn’t gain the grappled condition.
But. A grapple check is still a standard action for it, so instead of flailing adventurers with 3 devastating vine whips it has to use a standard action to maintain the grapple it has on one unlucky adventurer if it wants to keep her grappled?
Yes, it can only maintain the grapple on one opponent at a time. If it has an opponent grappled and hits another with a vine its grab ability triggers allowing it to grapple the new opponent. On the next round it has to make a choice which to maintain.
[quote="Grab special Attack == improved grapple?
Many monsters can make a free grapple check when hitting with a certain limb without provoking AoO and gain a +4 bonus on that grapple check. But what about simply STARTING a grapple like normally? For example when the foe has so high AC that the grabbing creature decides to just directly start a grapple, circumventing the AC it can’t possibly hit and instead target the CMD of its foe? Does the creature with the grab ability provoke an AoO when it tries to start a grapple without hitting its foe prior?
Also if a druid/ranger wants their companion to be a grappling monster and get them improved/greater grapple (after increasing the INT of the companion to 3) does having natural attacks that can grab already meet the prerequisite of the feat unarmed strike, or would one still need to get: improved unarmed strike > improved grapple > greater grapple?
Yes, it would provoke an AoO if it does not have Improved Grapple. By RAW no your companions natural attack does not meet the prerequisite for Improved Grapple.
Improved/Greater grapple and spells/items that explicitly increase your CMD against grapple attempts:
Reading through threads and discussions I came to the conclusion it’s not hard to start a grapple, but I came to the experience it’s hard to prevent the foe from ESCAPING it, since it’s a lot harder to accumulate bonus for CMD than for CMB, even though the CMD does add the DEX bonus (or penalty) as well. Especially when you’re not a Full BAB class without the combat defence training.
Now here’s the quiz question. Improved grapple increases your CMB for grapple by 2 and your CMD AGAINST grapple by 2.
Now you’re the active grappler and your foe tries to escape you. The rules explicitly state “make a combat maneuver, or escape artist check against the CMD of your opponent.”
In case of the combat maneuver I would say, yes you get the +2 to your CMD since a success in that combat maneuver check could make your foe becoming the dominant grappler.
But what about when you foe uses Escape Artist? She just wants to get away from you, not grapple you, would you still get the bonus from the feat?
Also the spell grease: Would a Grappler who uses grappling as the main thing to fight profit greatly from being under the effect of a grease spell? Because it raises the CMD against grapple by 10 and would foil any attempt to escape her grip.
If they try to reverse the grapple you get the +2 bonus. If they are just trying to break the grapple you do not. BTW the escape artist check can be used to reverse the grapple the same as the CMB check.
From the PRD "If You Are Grappled: If you are grappled, you can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making a combat maneuver check (DC equal to your opponent's CMD; this does not provoke an attack of opportunity) or Escape Artist check (with a DC equal to your opponent's CMD). If you succeed, you break the grapple and can act normally. Alternatively, if you succeed, you can become the grappler, grappling the other creature (meaning that the other creature cannot freely release the grapple without making a combat maneuver check, while you can)."
Flanking, cover and ranged attacks:
When you have the grappled condition you can’t make AoO. Thus you don’t threaten adjacent foes and can’t provide flanking bonus to your allies in regards to other surrounding creatures. But what about the creature you’re grappling or that has you grappled right now?
The rules say you are adjacent to each other and NOT in the same square like it used to be in 3.5 Does that mean, when you’re grappled by a big ugly monster your friendly rogue can stroll around and sneak attack it in its back? Or does the rogue only get to make the sneak attacks if the ugly monster pins you and loses its DEX bonus to AC? (which is another situation a rogue may deal sneak attack as we know)
And even the other way around, when you’re the active grappler and have someone grappled, can your party rogue sneak attack your victim, when going into flanking position to you? I know the rogue doesn’t get to sneak attack just for attacking a grappled creature, since it’s only a DEX penalty and not “lose your DEX bonus blablabla” But I’m talking here about getting into flanking position, because normally a grappling creature shouldn’t? be able to provide flanking bonus.
Also since you aren’t on top of each other the ranger with Precise shot (no malus for shooting into melee) can fire arrows at her leisure as long as you don’t give the ugly grappling monster soft cover towards the rangers attacks?
Nothing in the grappled condition or the flanking states you don't provide flanking when grappling. Not sure where you are getting that.
Yes with precise shot a ranged attacker does not suffer a penalty for shooting a grappled target.
Now here we go where the grappling and especially pin rules become awkward!
Brutal grappler loses 2 to AC in contrast to being grappled before. Why? He doesn’t have the -4 penalty to DEX any more and “just” loses his DEX bonus to AC. Since he had no DEX bonus to begin with he INCREASES his AC and then subtracts the -4 AC malus from being pinned. While the Agile grappler even loses 3! AC because he’s denied his DEX bonus as well when pinning someone.
CMD is the same game. Brutal grappler loses only 2 points in them, while Agile grappler loses 3. The discrepancy becomes even greater the more Agile grappler invests in DEX.
Now comes the burner, the Escape Artist of Brutal Grappler RISES when he gets pinned, instead of grappled. Why? Because Brutal grappler doesn’t have a DEX penalty anymore, so his Escape Artist check actually INCREASES when he’s pinned instead of grappled. But since his Grapple Bonus is higher anyway he doesn't care all that much.
Even worse, now that brutal grappler is pinned it’s actually EASIER! for him to break that grapple from Agile Grappler. He has still a +14 on his grapple check, while Agile Grapplers CMD against grapple dropped to 19. Before he needed to roll a 8 to break the grapple, now it’s only a 5 (75% chance!) that is needed to do the same, even though he’s pinned and in a “much severe” state of grappling and the Agile Grappler still needs to roll a 3 to succeed in maintaining the grapple.
I'm sorry but I just kind of skimmed the whole scenario and your observations because that was too convoluted to follow without a lot of effort but at first glance it looks like your observations are correct. Yes in a grapple it is better to be strong than agile.
And yeah, the example with the 2 grapplers was just that, some convuluted stuff that are mostly just curious to see how the grapple rules play out ^^'
IMHO the rules for grappling in PF are themselves way too convoluted even before adding in feats and abilities that affect it so it is hard to come up with any example scenario that isn't.
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About grease:
Prior Ascalaphus stated that you apply the bonus from Improved grapple and greater grapple to your CMD, when you opponent makes a grapple check to escape the grapple, and here is the last sentence from the grease spell:“A creature wearing greased armor or clothing gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Escape Artist checks and combat maneuver checks made to escape a grapple, and to their CMD to avoid being grappled. “
With the same logic you would add that +10 to your CMD increasing the difficulty for anyone who would try to use a grapple check to escape your grapple.
The spell seems very clear. You get a bonus to YOUR check to ESCAPE a grapple, and YOUR CMB to AVOID being grappled.
There's nothing in there making it harder to escape or avoid your grapples. The only weird side-effect is that you might have an easy time reversing grapples. However, once you've done that you get no more bonus to maintain it.
If the monster pins you, you can't attack it anymore and therefore no longer flank. But if the monster pins you, it still doesn't gain the pinned condition itself, so it doesn't lose Dex. Only you do.That is wrong. When you pin someone, you lose your entire DEX bonus to AC (and to CMD as well then) as is stated here in the rules:
Pin
You can give your opponent the pinned condition (see Conditions). Despite pinning your opponent, you still only have the grappled condition, but you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC.Which would allow a rogue to sneak attack you regardless of flanking conditions. That's also why it wasn't wrong to put penalties on the Agile Grappler when he pinned the Brutal grappler.
Hmm. Hadn't noticed that.
To both of you. Thank you for clarification with with the boni provided to CMD against checks the opponent makes to escape ^^
Also about the flanking, yes I think I confused myself.
The prerequisite for flanking is “must threaten an opponent.” but not “must be able to make AoO” Since you're still allowed to hit people when getting grappled as long as you don't have a two handed weapon you can provide flanking to others.And yeah, the example with the 2 grapplers was just that, some convuluted stuff that are mostly just curious to see how the grapple rules play out ^^'
The confusion is because there are three things that usually go together:
- Whether you get Dex to AC at all- Flanking
- Being able to make AoOs
Grappling disables AoOs, but doesn't alter the other ones directly. However, to threaten you often need 1-2 hands free depending on your weapon, but trying to grapple with less than all your hands has a penalty. So in practice many (amateur) grapplers stop threatening.