Curbing the hyperbole would certainly help. Start with an honest appraisal of the limitations and the worst case scenario.
A multi save AOE spell just makes this thing vanilla caster fare. Neither game altering or game breaking.
Helpless is not a possible option, so this is just setting up attacks of opportunity and/or wasting enemy actions. Seems pretty reasonable.
Greater Command is preatty balanced.
I'm confused. What else can the subject do, in addition to following the command?
Approach: On its turn, the subject moves toward you as quickly and directly as possible for 1 round. The creature may do nothing but move during its turn, and it provokes attacks of opportunity for this movement as normal.
Flee: On its turn, the subject moves away from you as quickly as possible for 1 round. It may do nothing but move during its turn, and it provokes attacks of opportunity for this movement as normal.
Okay, now worries here. The subjects entire turn is occupied with your command.
Fall: On its turn, the subject falls to the ground and remains prone for 1 round. It may act normally while prone but takes any appropriate penalties.
Not really a problem. Dropping prone is a free action. So, the subject can still attack or cast spells.
Drop: On its turn, the subject drops whatever it is holding. It can't pick up any dropped item until its next turn.
Huh? Unlike the other options, it's not specified here what the subject can do. I'm thinking it can act as normal, except it "wasted" a free action dropping any items and can't pick them up.
Oh, and what happens if you issue »Fall« to a flying creature?
I would say that command was rather broken in 3.5, and was basically fixed by the 5 possible commands being clarified in Pathfinder.
Greater command is a pretty limited spell (for 5th level) and due to it's short duration, not really capable for affecting the campaign much. If you compare it to suggestion, mass (an overpowered spell) you can see that while they seem similar, suggestions can be MUCH worse, and it lasts hours/level!
I would say command, mass is pretty close to showing what enchantment spells should look like.
I would include greater forbid action as it has almost exactly the same effects except it doesn't allow the saving throws each round.
Regarding greater command, it can easily shut down the majority of the enemy, doesn't have a template so can be interspersed with allies and lasts multiple rounds. Even if passing a save on a 50-50 which depending on the foe is not a given, the spell will take half of the opponents out and quarter of them for more than one round. For forbid action a lot longer.
A level 9 cleric can easily get save DCS to 20 (+5 spell, +5 Wisdom) even without feats or abilities. A typical CR 9 opponent like a frost giant has a +6 Will save. So targeting a group of 8 giants, 6 will be halted/dropped, 4 for a second round, 3 for a third round and 2 for a fourth round. In the case of greater forbid - 6 giants will be frozen in position for prevented from attacking for 9 rounds.
How do people rule it works with protection v Alignment. Do you treat it as direct mental control?
How do people rule it works with protection v Alignment. Do you treat it as direct mental control?
Yes, command, suggestion, etc. are direct control.
"Second, the subject immediately receives another saving throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects, such as charm person, command, and dominate person. This saving throw is made with a +2 morale bonus, using the same DC as the original effect. If successful, such effects are suppressed for the duration of this spell. The effects resume when the duration of this spell expires. While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target. "
I don't think it's that big of a deal.
Agreed. It's a fairly vanilla save-or-suck spell, except for the suck part. (Maybe call this one 'save-or-be-annoyed'?) There's literally nothing you can do that will take someone out of the fight except for 'flee.' If you tell them to drop their weapons, they simply draw another one as a move action, or possibly as a free action. If you tell them to 'fall,' they hit you or cast a spell anyway, just with a minor temporary penalty. If you tell them to 'halt,' you cast a weaker version of hold person as they're not helpless and can't CdG them.
If this spell is game-breaking, so is bleed.
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Except command affects any creature not just humanoids.
Mass hold person is a 7th level spell.
Mass hold monster is a 9th level spell.
Greater command can effectively work as a mass hold monster that doesn't make them helpless that is four levels lower than its equivalent.
I would say that is very good.
Having used greater forbid action as a caster cleric, I will say I stopped taking it because I could tell it was cheesing the DM off and singlehandedly taking all the challenge out of fights.
When save or suck spells work 25% of the time or affect a limited number of people fine.
When they work 75% of the time and affect everyone that becomes game changing.
When save or suck spells work 25% of the time or affect a limited number of people fine.
When they work 75% of the time and affect everyone that becomes game changing.
Yes, but, as I said earlier, this is a save-or-suck-except-it-doesn't-suck.
It's not a mass hold person, but a mass daze monster.
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It's a pretty good spell all around.
- Multi-target, so it's not all-or-nothing.
- Several options, so there's some variety.
- Fun and flavorful uses. ("Kneel before me, wretches!")
- Helps and relies on martials without overshadowing them. It can ground flyers, make things provoke, disarm, or lower effective AC.
- Save-per-round means the GM gets a shot even with high DCs.
Greater Forbid Action is much much better.... and like The Sword I have decimated entire encounters in the past with it.
Definite Top 10 Cleric spell
When save or suck spells work 25% of the time or affect a limited number of people fine.
When they work 75% of the time and affect everyone that becomes game changing.Yes, but, as I said earlier, this is a save-or-suck-except-it-doesn't-suck.
It's not a mass hold person, but a mass daze monster.
I would consider being unable to act brig pretty sucky!
For the record mass daze is only one level lower, only affects humanoids and lasts one round... Greater command effects all creatures (not immune to enchantments) and lasts multiple rounds - big difference. Forbid action lasts 9 rounds +
When save or suck spells work 25% of the time or affect a limited number of people fine.
When they work 75% of the time and affect everyone that becomes game changing.Yes, but, as I said earlier, this is a save-or-suck-except-it-doesn't-suck.
It's not a mass hold person, but a mass daze monster.
I would consider being unable to act brig pretty sucky!
For the record mass daze is only one level lower, only affects humanoids and lasts one round... Greater command effects all creatures (not immune to enchantments) and lasts multiple rounds - big difference. Forbid action lasts 9 rounds +
Mass Daze is a really weak spell, though- I haven't seen anybody take it ever.
I agree that it might be more balanced to have the halt option not allow moving from that spot, or have it allow a total defense action.
Note: The targets do need to understand your language. Also, the spell being Verbal only can be a handy thing. I would say this is a great spell in an urban setting where you can affect lots of creatures (friendly/hostile) without blowing up houses or starting fires, or harming civilians. Also useful when the fighter fails his will save...
Greater Forbid Action is also on the Psychic list. I hadn't realized it didn't allow another save every round. Ouch.
Greater forbid action is one of those spells that our group by consent pretend doesn't exist. Turnabout-FairPlay etc. Four unlucky saves and you have a TPk.
Greater forbid action is one of those spells that our group by consent pretend doesn't exist. Turnabout-FairPlay etc. Four unlucky saves and you have a TPk.
I really don't see how this can happen. As with command, there are no commands that render you helpless. Unless you are forbidden to move, you can simply beat a hasty retreat and try again laster. Unless you are forbidden to cast, someone simply dispels the effect. Even if you're forbidden to attack, you are still free to defend yourself (and the casters are still free to summon enough walls of meat to tie the opponent up).
Greater forbid action is one of those spells that our group by consent pretend doesn't exist. Turnabout-FairPlay etc. Four unlucky saves and you have a TPk.I really don't see how this can happen. As with command, there are no commands that render you helpless. Unless you are forbidden to move, you can simply beat a hasty retreat and try again laster. Unless you are forbidden to cast, someone simply dispels the effect. Even if you're forbidden to attack, you are still free to defend yourself (and the casters are still free to summon enough walls of meat to tie the opponent up).
I mostly agree, except with "you are still free to defend yourself." What do you mean by that? Fighting defensively but without making a (forbidden) attack roll?
Forbidding attack when the party can't escape is easily a TPK. You can't make an attack roll - so not sure what you mean by defend yourself.
Forbidding casting - effectively prevents healing, and will shut down some parties depending on the make up. May also prevent escape.
Forbidding Draw means all characters are unarmed if the caster gets the drop on them.
Forbidding Move - prevents people escaping, flanking, ganging up on enemies and allows enemies to gang up and flank individuals in the party.
It also works for the party destroying encounters. That is by casting a single 5th level spell.
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Forbidding attack when the party can't escape is easily a TPK. You can't make an attack roll - so not sure what you mean by defend yourself.
Forbidding casting - effectively prevents healing, and will shut down some parties depending on the make up. May also prevent escape.
Forbidding Draw means all characters are unarmed if the caster gets the drop on them.
Forbidding Move - prevents people escaping, flanking, ganging up on enemies and allows enemies to gang up and flank individuals in the party.
It also works for the party destroying encounters. That is by casting a single 5th level spell.
Attack - You can still take Total Defense action for a boost to AC or withdraw actions to move away from melee threats or behind cover for ranged threats. You can still cast spells that do not effect the enemy.
Casting - You can still attack, use alchemist items, or withdraw. You can still control ongoing spell effects like summons, laming sphere, call lighting, and so on.
Draw - Only effective in a surprise round or against archers.
Move - You can still cast and full attack. You can use bull rush or reposition maneuvers to stop flankers.
Any use of the spell is a nuisance, but it's not a TPK.
Generally attack bonuses increase much faster than ACs. Generally most foes you have have a much higher Attack roll vs AC. Total defence is useful but isn't helpful when most parties defence is a good offence. Withdrawal isn't always an option of there is nowhere to withdraw to or the enemy is more manoeuvrable than you.
Using alchemical items or attacking is a very subpar response for most level 9+ casters. In a party with 50% caster parties. Again withdraw isn't always an option.
Draw is only useful when winning the initiative but when winning initiative it is VERY good. Otherwise you get to choose a different option.
Attacking isn't much use if the creatures attacking you have reach and casting is fine, but if the enemy can move but you can't, those doing damage would be the first target. How does the caster fare when they can't 5ft step or escape. Bull rush and reposition is then provoking AOO and needs training to be effective.
To be clear - I am not saying parties can't act, but 9+ rounds of these limitations in an otherwise balanced encounter dramatically increases or decreases the difficulty.
Attack - You can still take Total Defense action for a boost to AC or withdraw actions to move away from melee threats or behind cover for ranged threats. You can still cast spells that do not effect the enemy.
Falls apart in reality... every single time I've cast the spell on a group of enemy I've gone for this option.
Attack: The target cannot take any action that involves an attack roll, or uses a spell or ability that targets a foe or an area that includes a foe.
The party have usually torn the enemy apart within 2-3 rounds..... the enemy typically end up running around like headless chickens!!!
Attack - You can still take Total Defense action for a boost to AC or withdraw actions to move away from melee threats or behind cover for ranged threats. You can still cast spells that do not effect the enemy.Falls apart in reality... every single time I've cast the spell on a group of enemy I've gone for this option.
Attack: The target cannot take any action that involves an attack roll, or uses a spell or ability that targets a foe or an area that includes a foe.
The party have usually torn the enemy apart within 2-3 rounds..... the enemy typically end up running around like headless chickens!!!
Usually not a TPK for a party of PCs at that level, though, which was what they were talking about - they can probably Dimension Door out or similar.
Do you think if the monsters closed ranks and used total defense the +4 AC would have lasted until enough of them saved?
I'm talking about Greater Forbid Action..... 1 save is all they get!!
The party have usually torn the enemy apart within 2-3 rounds..... the enemy typically end up running around like headless chickens!!!Do you think if the monsters closed ranks and used total defense the +4 AC would have lasted until enough of them saved?
I think they were discussing 'Forbid Action', so there weren't any re-saves.
Unless your opponent isn't evil.
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Unless your opponent isn't evil.
Let's be honest, that is rarely the case in an actual game. I actually think this retort encapsulates my concern with these sorts of threads; they quickly dissolve into looking at corner cases like they are the rule rather then the exception and then, combined with the power of armchair theorycrafting, a routine save-or-suck spell like this turns into a TPK machine.
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Maybe this should be "Game Altering Spells: Anything that negates an entire group of enemies if they fail their saves, like Dazing Fireball, Greater Forbid Action, etc."
Similar to other will-save spells, probably a good idea as a GM to think through (or even play test) if they party can survive the encounter if the fighters or to many of the PCs fail their save. Have a back-up plan for encounter outcome, such as a way to escape, negotiate, or taken prisoner, etc.
I think the highlighted bit sums up my feelings about this spell. Almost any high-level Will-save spell can be an encounter changer with the potential for a TPK. The classic, of course, is dominate, which is also a fifth level spell. Dominate the fighter and he will classically wipe out the rest of the party, unless one of the other casters can do something useful (like dispel the effect).
I don't see greater forbid action rising to this level of dangerousness, frankly. Yes, it can suck when you can't "attack," but even in that situation, the casters can still attempt to dispel and everyone can attempt to retreat. If the casters can't cast, they can still use supernatural abilities and everyone can still attack and/or retreat. If the party has been forbidden to move, they have all of their options available, including retreat through an appropriate spell.
So, yeah, having a backup plan is always a good idea, and I'll never gainsay it. But why single out this spell -- a bad set of rolls vs. breath weapon can also produce a TPK, or a giant with an oversized greataxe. Should every entry in the Bestiary come with a warning label "May produce total party kills"?
Greater Forbid is better than Dominate since not only does Dominate grant an initial save but if you force a character to do something against its nature it gets an additional save, which if it passes negates the entire spell. And of course GFA is multi target.
In my experience GFA is about as good as it gets for 5th level. Granted its going to be more effective against enemies than PCs but thats the same with pretty much most spells.
Everytime I've used it its caused mayhem and in 1 adventure I really had to tone it down as I was combining it with a MM Rod of Persistence and my GM was getting seriously peeved!!
I agree with Orfamay and Matthew that other save or suck spells are as bad. However these two seem to come in at a lower level and don't have a template making them extremely flexible.
Most of the mass spells are 6th level or higher. Dazing fireball for instance has a template is level 6, saving as a 3rd level spell and lasting 3 rounds.
It's interesting that greater command has more debilitating effects but grants a save every round. Greater Forbid action let's you act (theoretically) but lasts much much longer.
Incidentally I would add Confusion to the list of spells that are particularly debilitating at lower levels, though at least confusion has a template, limiting it somewhat. (Confusion should definitely go on your list GM1990)
If the party has been forbidden to move, they have all of their options available, including retreat through an appropriate spell.
No?
Move: The target can take no act that would cause it to end up in a different location.
Perhaps there's a way around this. The wizard could move the rest of the part via convenient spell, but then what? Noble sacrifice ...
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Incidentally I would add Confusion to the list of spells that are particularly debilitating at lower levels, though at least confusion has a template, limiting it somewhat. (Confusion should definitely go on your list GM1990)
Seconded, Confusion is a pretty harsh spell especially since it clicks online at level 7. I actually lost a character to confusion when my cleric decided to engage the barbarian in a confusion slap fight. Bad times.
Re: confusion
My cohort (witch) got is a slapfight with the wizard's cohort (wizard). With both dumping strength, and at 1/2 BAB, I think we both occasionally did non-lethal to each other. It was comical. My cohort had the edge: quarterstaff (1d6-1) vs. dagger (1d4-1). I think he might have had better AC as well. Had I thought about it, my cohort's familiar could have aided another for defense for even better AC. The other would not have attacked it, since the witch was always attacking.
/cevah