Hi - I'm looking for some clarification on this subject because I've encountered different opinions related to what exactly contributes to determining the DC to craft an item.
An "official" response, or a link to an errata that addresses this issue, assuming the alternate opinion is correct, would be extremely helpful in putting this to bed in our group.
Example 1:
A Belt of Giant Strength has a CL of 8. The DC to create this item would be 8 (the value of the CL) plus an additional 5 (per the rulebook). For a total DC of 13.
The construction requirements are:
Craft Wondrous Item, bull's strength; Cost 2,000 gp (+2), 8,000 gp (+4), 18,000 gp (+6)
Therefore crafting a Belt of Giant Strength +2 has the same DC as a Belt of Giant Strength +6 because according the rulebook the DC is 5 + the caster level of the item which is still 8.
Alternative Opinion Using the Same Example:
A Belt of Giant Strength has a CL of 8, but CL is not used in determining the DC of the item because it is NOT listed as a requirement in the items creation. Instead the DC to create this item is 3 x the enhancement bonus of the item.
Therefore crafting a Belt of Giant Strength +2 would have a DC of 6 (3 times the bonus of the item) plus 5 to equal 11. While a Belt of Giant Strength +6 would have a DC of 18 (3 times the bonus of the item) plus 5 equal to 23.
This debate surfaced because of some information found in another thread on the Paizo rules forum. It came from Sean K Reynolds, who apparently is a contributor and former Paizo Developer.
Sean said:
"Caster level is only a prerequisite for creating the item IF the caster level is LISTED in the Requirements section of the item (for an example, see amulet of mighty fists).
The text on page 460 is a little unclear and probably is derived from the (wrong) SRD text taken from the (wrong) DMG 3.0 magic item introduction (where Monte wrote it correctly, then someone changed it to something wrong and that's how it got published, and fixed in the errata for 3.0, and then 3.5 was written by updating the original 3.0 Word documents, which didn't incorporate the 3.0 errata, and thus went to print with wrong information again). Anyway, caster level is NOT a prereq unless the item's Requirement section specifically lists a caster level."
Which example that I have listed above is correct? Again, anything officially sanctioned by Paizo on this subject would be extremely helpful in putting this to bed.
You are confusing several ideas into one.
1) Armor, Shields, and Weapon Bonus:
The minimum caster level for a given plus is 3X.
2) Item Requirements:
If a spell is mentioned, the caster level is the minimum needed to cast that spell.
3) Spell effect caster level can be from minimum to cast the spell up. [This can vary a lot.]
4) Item's caster level:
This is the maximum of the above three entries, or higher based on similar items.
Your example Belt of Giant Strength breaks down as:
1) No bonus here -- CL 0
2) Spell: Bull's Strength is a 2nd level spell -- CL 3
3) Cast at a higher level to prevent easy dispelling -- CL 8
4) Max(0,3,8) = CL 8.
The item's CL is 8, thus the DC is 13.
/cevah
Jeff Merola wrote: The Caster Level of an item is just a default assumption, not a requirement, unless it also appears in the requirements section. Thanks for the response.
Does the caster level of an item, say a Pearl of Power like used in the FAQ you linked, get used to determine the DC?
So in this case: 5 + 17cl = DC22?
If not, how do you determine the DC?
Thanks!
Phergas wrote: Jeff Merola wrote: The Caster Level of an item is just a default assumption, not a requirement, unless it also appears in the requirements section. Thanks for the response.
Does the caster level of an item, say a Pearl of Power like used in the FAQ you linked, get used to determine the DC?
So in this case: 5 + 17cl = DC22?
If not, how do you determine the DC?
Thanks! Yes. That was part 3 & 4 of the list I gave. An item's CL exactly determines its DC by the formula DC = CL + 5.
/cevah
Cevah wrote: Phergas wrote: Jeff Merola wrote: The Caster Level of an item is just a default assumption, not a requirement, unless it also appears in the requirements section. Thanks for the response.
Does the caster level of an item, say a Pearl of Power like used in the FAQ you linked, get used to determine the DC?
So in this case: 5 + 17cl = DC22?
If not, how do you determine the DC?
Thanks! Yes. That was part 3 & 4 of the list I gave. An item's CL exactly determines its DC by the formula DC = CL + 5.
/cevah Thanks Cevah.
I see what you are saying there....
But then how does this factor into it?
"Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item. Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast spells of the desired level.
However, it makes sense that the minimum caster level of the pearl is the minimum caster level necessary to cast spells of that level--it would be strange for a 2nd-level pearl to be CL 1st.
For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl's caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic). If he wants to make a 2nd-level pearl, the caster level has to be at least 3, as wizards can't cast 2nd-level spells until they reach character level 3. He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement."
So in the case of the example of the 3rd level wizard making a 2nd level pearl.... So using that same math...
1: No bonus
2: 2nd Level spell -- CL 3
3: Higher Level to Prevent Dispelling --- CL 8
4: Same results but the DC is 13 not 22...
Is a Pearl of Power an exception?
You make a pearl that allow you to recall fist level spells:
Minimum level required to cast first level spells: 1
From that, minimum CL of the pearl: 1
DC to craft it 5 (base) + 1 (CL) = DC 6
You make a pearl that allow you to recall fifth level spells:
Minimum level required to cast 5th level spells: 9
From that, minimum CL of the pearl: 9
DC to craft it 5 (base) + 9 (CL) = DC 14
Belt of giant strength:
it require a 2nd level spell, so minimum CL is 3.
Minimum DC 5+3 = 8
You can make it at CL 18 if you can make the roll, that will be +518, so DC 23. It wouldn't even change the price as increasing the CL don't change how the belt work.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
In this example, step 3 is non-existent, since the creator isn't trying to make a CL 8 pearl. He's just trying to make a CL 3 one. So the DC would be 8. Unless, of course, he is trying to make a CL 8 pearl.
The FAQ introduces a reasonable house rule to allow lower level wizards an easier time of hitting the DC.
Chemlak wrote: In this example, step 3 is non-existent, since the creator isn't trying to make a CL 8 pearl. He's just trying to make a CL 3 one. So the DC would be 8. Unless, of course, he is trying to make a CL 8 pearl.
The FAQ introduces a reasonable house rule to allow lower level wizards an easier time of hitting the DC.
Houserule? It is part of the rules:
PRD wrote: A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell
Diego Rossi wrote: You make a pearl that allow you to recall fist level spells:
Minimum level required to cast first level spells: 1
From that, minimum CL of the pearl: 1
DC to craft it 5 (base) + 1 (CL) = DC 6
You make a pearl that allow you to recall fifth level spells:
Minimum level required to cast 5th level spells: 9
From that, minimum CL of the pearl: 9
DC to craft it 5 (base) + 9 (CL) = DC 14
Belt of giant strength:
it require a 2nd level spell, so minimum CL is 3.
Minimum DC 5+3 = 8
You can make it at CL 18 if you can make the roll, that will be +518, so DC 23. It wouldn't even change the price as increasing the CL don't change how the belt work.
Thanks Diego
The example on the pfsrd seems to support what you are saying....
I looked over the magic item crafting rules and was unable to find an explicit statement on this question:
Does creating a magic item require the creator to be of the same or higher caster level of the item itself? This doesn't seem to square with the CLs listed for specific magic items; for instance, a Belt of Giant Strength +2 has CL 8th, but the only spell required in its creation, bull's strength, has a minimum caster level of 3.
Am I missing anything here?
Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item. Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast spells of the desired level. However, it makes sense that the minimum caster level of the pearl is the minimum caster level necessary to cast spells of that level--it would be strange for a 2nd-level pearl to be CL 1st. For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl's caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic). If he wants to make a 2nd-level pearl, the caster level has to be at least 3, as wizards can't cast 2nd-level spells until they reach character level 3. He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement.
So according to this the formula listed above is wrong.. And the minimum DC is just as you say. 5 + CL 3 which equals 8. Not 13.
So what is right.
Belt of Giant Strength DC 13 or Belt of Giant Strength DC 8?
Minimum caster level 3, so DC 8, typical but not mandatory CL 8 so DC 13, "I want my belt to be almost immune to dispel magic" Cl 20, DC 25.
(Note that your item Saving throws change with the CL changes, so there is a limited benefit from that too. but how often you leave your magic items unattended?)
You can choose any CL from the minimum required to cast the required spell to CL 20.
I don't like it, but RAW you can make items at a CL higher than yours. The exceptions are "potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items" as you need to meet "their spell prerequisites", included the CL.
FAQ wrote: Crafting and Bypassing Requirements: What crafting requirements can you bypass by adding +5 to the DC of your Spellcraft check?
As presented on page 549 of the Core Rulebook, there are no limitations other than (1) you have to have the item creation feat, and (2) you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites. So racial requirements, specific spell requirements, math requirements (such as "caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus"), and so on, are all subject to the +5 DC rule.
Crafting and Spell Requirements: When crafting an item, can an arcane caster use a divine scroll to fulfill an item's divine spell requirement?
Yes. (Likewise, a divine caster could use an arcane scroll to fulfill an item's arcane spell requirement.)
However, the character has to be able to activate the scroll somehow as part of the crafting process. This probably requires the arcane caster to succeed at a Use Magic Device check to activate the divine spell. If the caster fails to cast the divine spell from the scroll, he makes no progress on the item that day unless he has another source for that divine spell (such as another copy of the scroll).
posted February 2013 | back to top
Crafting and Take 10: Can I take 10 on the Spellcraft check to craft a magic item?
Yes.
The CLs listed for most magic items are simply suggested values, not mandatory values.
Crafting magic items is an activity that require a lot of GM input, so the best thing is to ask your GM.
If you are a GM and it is your first experience with people crafting magic items it is better to stick to standard items. "Creative" interpretation of the rules can generate monsters.
Ultimate Campaign has some useful information here.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
13. Unless he wants it to have worse saving throws and be easier to dispel than a normal belt, in which case he can set the CL to anything from 3-7.
Any requirement you do not meet adds a +5 to the DC, such as Caster Level. If your caster level is 3 and the item has a caster level requirement of 5, you add +5 to the DC.
Sarrah wrote: Any requirement you do not meet adds a +5 to the DC, such as Caster Level. If your caster level is 3 and the item has a caster level requirement of 5, you add +5 to the DC. Most of the time it is not a requirement, only an information about the typical CL.
Phergas wrote: Hi - I'm looking for some clarification on this subject because I've encountered different opinions related to what exactly contributes to determining the DC to craft an item.
An "official" response, or a link to an errata that addresses this issue, assuming the alternate opinion is correct, would be extremely helpful in putting this to bed in our group.
Example 1:
A Belt of Giant Strength has a CL of 8. The DC to create this item would be 8 (the value of the CL) plus an additional 5 (per the rulebook). For a total DC of 13.
The construction requirements are:
Craft Wondrous Item, bull's strength; Cost 2,000 gp (+2), 8,000 gp (+4), 18,000 gp (+6)
Therefore crafting a Belt of Giant Strength +2 has the same DC as a Belt of Giant Strength +6 because according the rulebook the DC is 5 + the caster level of the item which is still 8.
Alternative Opinion Using the Same Example:
A Belt of Giant Strength has a CL of 8, but CL is not used in determining the DC of the item because it is NOT listed as a requirement in the items creation. Instead the DC to create this item is 3 x the enhancement bonus of the item.
Therefore crafting a Belt of Giant Strength +2 would have a DC of 6 (3 times the bonus of the item) plus 5 to equal 11. While a Belt of Giant Strength +6 would have a DC of 18 (3 times the bonus of the item) plus 5 equal to 23.
This debate surfaced because of some information found in another thread on the Paizo rules forum. It came from Sean K Reynolds, who apparently is a contributor and former Paizo Developer.
Sean said:
"Caster level is only a prerequisite for creating the item IF the caster level is LISTED in the Requirements section of the item (for an example, see amulet of mighty fists).
The text on page 460 is a little unclear and probably is derived from the (wrong) SRD text taken from the (wrong) DMG 3.0 magic item introduction (where Monte wrote it correctly, then someone changed it to something wrong and that's how it got published, and fixed in the errata for...
Thanks everyone! We've concluded the debate within our group. I appreciate everyone's help!
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