Just finished session in my son's campaign and after a pretty non-dangerous encounter with a dragon that ultimately flew off, we were discussing the encounter design and that the dragons as listed in CRB don't get flyby attack until the last few age categories for most chromatics.
The only pre-req is fly, so I'm looking for some dialogue on why that wouldn't be the first feat a dragon would learn or even receive as a bonus feat from wyrmling on up.
I would see even the wyrmling using flyby as its normal method while its breath-weapon recharged, and only swooping down to 5' level to maximize its BW AoE; and lastly only landing when it could fight a lone target as the norm to maximize its attack routine. The drawback I can see is it'll limit their action economy to 1 attack per swoop, but it'll also keep them from being flanked and put them beyond first range increment of thrown weapons or require the PCs to delay action until the dragon swoops down - in which case, after doing that once, it could just stand off 1d4 rounds waiting for recharge and then swoop.
I can see how that would make them harder to kill, but coming from 1E background....you didn't mess with dragons unless you were prepared to lose some party members. That being said - I really like them in the game as a challenge, and its ironic when you talk to some OS gamers and we played a game called dungeons (saw lots of those) and -dragons- and they were non-existent in some campaigns or TPK'd you the 1 time you saw one in others.
They're the iconic monster, and IMO should still be death on wing or flee to fight another day in almost all situations (still award the XP to the party if they drive off monsters in my games).
Has anyone house-ruled fly-by as a bonus feat for all dragons, or replaced other feats at the first age category and up? Any in-game experiences if you did or things to consider I missed?
GM 1990 wrote: Just finished session in my son's campaign and after a pretty non-dangerous encounter with a dragon that ultimately flew off, we were discussing the encounter design and that the dragons as listed in CRB don't get flyby attack until the last few age categories for most chromatics.
The only pre-req is fly, so I'm looking for some dialogue on why that wouldn't be the first feat a dragon would learn or even receive as a bonus feat from wyrmling on up.
I would see even the wyrmling using flyby as its normal method while its breath-weapon recharged, and only swooping down to 5' level to maximize its BW AoE; and lastly only landing when it could fight a lone target as the norm to maximize its attack routine. The drawback I can see is it'll limit their action economy to 1 attack per swoop, but it'll also keep them from being flanked and put them beyond first range increment of thrown weapons or require the PCs to delay action until the dragon swoops down - in which case, after doing that once, it could just stand off 1d4 rounds waiting for recharge and then swoop.
I can see how that would make them harder to kill, but coming from 1E background....you didn't mess with dragons unless you were prepared to lose some party members. That being said - I really like them in the game as a challenge, and its ironic when you talk to some OS gamers and we played a game called dungeons (saw lots of those) and -dragons- and they were non-existent in some campaigns or TPK'd you the 1 time you saw one in others.
They're the iconic monster, and IMO should still be death on wing or flee to fight another day in almost all situations (still award the XP to the party if they drive off monsters in my games).
Has anyone house-ruled fly-by as a bonus feat for all dragons, or replaced other feats at the first age category and up? Any in-game experiences if you did or things to consider I missed?
I usually custom build dragons whenever they are in the game. So flyby is a common feat early on.
What's listed in the Bestiaries isn't set in stone, changing out their feats should be expected, otherwise ALL dragons of the same age/type always have the same feats/skills/spells... stupid. They should be unique, so make them unique!
alexd1976 wrote: GM 1990 wrote: Just finished session in my son's campaign and after a pretty non-dangerous encounter with a dragon that ultimately flew off, we were discussing the encounter design and that the dragons as listed in CRB don't get flyby attack until the last few age categories for most chromatics.
The only pre-req is fly, so I'm looking for some dialogue on why that wouldn't be the first feat a dragon would learn or even receive as a bonus feat from wyrmling on up.
I would see even the wyrmling using flyby as its normal method while its breath-weapon recharged, and only swooping down to 5' level to maximize its BW AoE; and lastly only landing when it could fight a lone target as the norm to maximize its attack routine. The drawback I can see is it'll limit their action economy to 1 attack per swoop, but it'll also keep them from being flanked and put them beyond first range increment of thrown weapons or require the PCs to delay action until the dragon swoops down - in which case, after doing that once, it could just stand off 1d4 rounds waiting for recharge and then swoop.
I can see how that would make them harder to kill, but coming from 1E background....you didn't mess with dragons unless you were prepared to lose some party members. That being said - I really like them in the game as a challenge, and its ironic when you talk to some OS gamers and we played a game called dungeons (saw lots of those) and -dragons- and they were non-existent in some campaigns or TPK'd you the 1 time you saw one in others.
They're the iconic monster, and IMO should still be death on wing or flee to fight another day in almost all situations (still award the XP to the party if they drive off monsters in my games).
Has anyone house-ruled fly-by as a bonus feat for all dragons, or replaced other feats at the first age category and up? Any in-game experiences if you did or things to consider I missed?
I usually custom build dragons whenever they are in the game. So flyby is a common... Any ideas you can share to spice them up? I see them being an opportunity to really RP during the fight since they can stand off, and talk trash IAW the personality described in the bestiary.
I only had 2 in my 4yr campaign back in college, and they were mostly "lore". the PCs only interacted with Nesrepto the Red once, by accident on their part, and fled tails between legs, and linked up with Hobar the Gold in human shape for a couple days on the road w/o knowing "for sure" what he really was.
What I do like about the PF dragon templates is you can put these iconic figures into a campaign at the earliest levels and actually fight them (doesn't mean necessarily kill them). But I still like them being this mysterious and legendary icon that you shouldn't -want- to run into by accident.
For flyers with superior reach, a regular full attack is usually a better option than Flyby Attack (unless the creature also has the option to snatch other creatures, which only the big ones get). But sure, smaller dragons would certainly benefit from Flyby Attack (allowing them to fulfill a skirmisher role).
As for ways to customize your creatures, I wrote a couple of templates for that purpose, which can be found right here.
Feel free to change around the Feats for monsters, especially for "boss" or "mini-boss" type monsters. I agree that the Feat selections for some monsters seem...odd, at best, and nonsensical at worst.
For example, on a creature that has six plus natural attacks (most Dragons), why on Earth would you waste Feat selections on Vital Strike and Improved Vital Strike, Feats you can only use when making a single Attack action? If they had Flyby Attack, then Vital Strike isn't a horrible choice, but without Flyby Attack, those are completely wasted Feat slots. Another weird choice for a Dragon is Combat Expertise. Why would an Ancient Dragon want Combat Expertise (especially when none of the younger age categories has that Feat), one of the most widely considered crappy Feats out there. Wouldn't something like Quicken Spell be a far better choice?
Anyway, tweak the Feats to your heart's content, and don't feel guilty about it.
...why would a wyrmling fight you alone? What would cause that situation?
Realistically, it makes more sense they'd learn Flyby Attack later because dragons would not pick fights with humanoids and bigger game until later age categories. Until then, just full-attacking and using breath weapons will be enough to kill prey. Flyby Attack is useful when dealing with a party of dangerous foes or other enemies that would be dangerous to engage in melee combat. That situation shouldn't come up. And if it ever did, there should be an adult dragon supervising the fight.
Cyrad wrote: ...why would a wyrmling fight you alone? What would cause that situation?
Realistically, it makes more sense they'd learn Flyby Attack later because dragons would not pick fights with humanoids and bigger game until later age categories. Until then, just full-attacking and using breath weapons will be enough to kill prey. Flyby Attack is useful when dealing with a party of dangerous foes or other enemies that would be dangerous to engage in melee combat. That situation shouldn't come up. And if it ever did, there should be an adult dragon supervising the fight.
We've been dealing with dragon supported kobold assaults since the first session (how our group met). I'm helping coach/mentor my 12 year old in his first time GMing a campaign - so I'm also trying to not ask too many questions ahead of time, so as to not spoil the surprise for myself.
This night, we were traveling by naval vessel, when our end of the ship was attacked by this group, when my wife asked "hey...I thought there was a crew of over 20 sailors plus some marines....why aren't they helping us?" My son gave me the "help??" look...to which I offered, "well obviously they're busy fighting -those- dragons and kobolds" and jerked my thumb over my shoulder indicating the other end of the ship.
He's still working on CR and worried about killing any of us, we would have been better served with a Young CR7 (our APL is 4, but with a 4d6 stat array we're more like APL 5). He figured it would have TPK'd us, but IMO unlikely especially with 2 paladins in the group vs a dragon Smite is nasty.
It's probably advisable he not use dragons or monsters that require clever tactics and use of their abilities. Even experienced GMs play those monsters wrong.
To figure out CR, add up all the XP of the monsters and figure out how much that XP is worth for a CR. This always seems to be something new GMs trip up on.
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