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KC's Patented Copyrighted Copywritten One-Of-A-Kind Official 100% Paizo-Approached 90% Paizo-Approved 75% Paizo-Approved? 100% On-The-Paizo-Forums
1. All ability damage from poison is called a "Poison Penalty". So, 4 Strength damage from poison? A -4 Strength Poison Penalty. This Penalty is not the same as an ability score penalty, mind you—its effects are identical to ability damage, except as below. All Poison Penalty damage to a single stat can be cured with a single lesser restoration or neutralize poison. If they're still poisoned, though, it's still just 1d4 (so this isn't an easy way to eliminate poisoning as a present danger). Poison Penalties linger for about a day, at which point a second save can be attempted to completely remove all penalties. If this save is failed, the poison remains (and possibly gets worse).
2. Bump all poison damages up a little bit. Let's say one dice grade for now.
By doing this, poison as a nuisance substantially fades from the game (since it's fairly easy to keep at least one potion or scroll of lesser restoration around). Poison is now allowed to be a serious short-term threat, instead (and thus remotely useful for adventurers to use on enemies). It can only be a long-term threat if you don't have access to any healing magic!
Note: I am very tired so this may not be a fix at all. Thoughts?
It seems like a solution looking for a problem.
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I think you need to ask yourself, what exactly are you trying to acomplish here. More deadlier poisons? More harder to resist poisons? You need to set some proper goal and also understand why the poisons are as they are. In general, poisons are weak because of PCs. Harder and nastier poisons might mean harder and nastier problems for PCs.
Your current poison idea assumes that you'll get more milleage out of poisons if the effect is more sudden, rather then ongoing (if I understood it right). In general, I would prefer poisons as they are, but with slightly higher DCs. As a GM, ability damage is one of my favorites that cannot be healed as easily as hp damage, so the poison fix idea seems unfavorable to me.
Adam
I like that you are thinking about this... but the fix required is a drop in cost and increase in DCs...
:D
KC,
Our group is currently playing Skull & Shackles, and if poison were bumped up by one die size, we would have at least 3 additional party deaths. We do not consider it a nuisance. This is 100% from creatures that poison with every attack. Mostly Con damage. If your "fix" is addressing cases of single does poison (from a trap or an enemy who coats weapons in poison) then I guess I understand. If it's more than one dose, then I suggest you re-read the poison rules to see how the DCs and duration increase.
Venomous creatures are a good point—they don't so much need repair. I do strongly believe that poison has a problem, however. Ability damage isn't an immediate threat in the majority of cases—it's just a reason to go back to town and hire a cleric. I've never seen poison play an effective role. It's just a case of, "Ugh, am I healed up yet?"
As a GM, ability damage is one of my favorites that cannot be healed as easily as hp damage, so the poison fix idea seems unfavorable to me.
It seems the reason you favor it is the exact same reason it's such a pain to me.
PFC: Poison deals 1d4 strength ability damage. Roll a 3. The creature takes -3 to their strength score that can be recovered from, and it inflicts between a -1 or -2 (depending on whether the strength score was even or odd) to all Strength-based d20 checks. Attack rolls, damage rolls (a little tinkering with two-handed weapons), and climb and swim checks.
KCsF: Poison deals 3 poison penalty to the strength ability score. The creature takes -1 to -1 (depending on whether the strength score was even or odd) to all Strength-based d20 checks. Attack rolls, damage rolls (a little tinkering with two-handed weapons), and climb and swim checks.
What is your point? Are you assuming that you don't roll in my proposed system?
Bear in mind, everyone, that I'm not exactly defending this system. The questions I ask and points are make are more to craft a more clear narrative of why this idea fails.
KC,
Our group is currently playing Skull & Shackles, and if poison were bumped up by one die size, we would have at least 3 additional party deaths. We do not consider it a nuisance. This is 100% from creatures that poison with every attack. Mostly Con damage. If your "fix" is addressing cases of single does poison (from a trap or an enemy who coats weapons in poison) then I guess I understand. If it's more than one dose, then I suggest you re-read the poison rules to see how the DCs and duration increase.
If you're referring to the grog, that's an immersion-breaking no-save 1d3 Con damage plot device more than it's a poison.
Poisons are stupid, drugs are cheaper and more effective.
And they wont even give a save for effect, only for being addicted.
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@Kobold Cleaver
You still didn't clarify enough what exactly troubles you besides "it's just a reason to go back to town and hire a cleric". I believe that you can say that for hp damage likewise. If you feel that poisons or ability damage isn't threat enough, it's fairly easy to make it a threat actually. Problem is keeping the threat low enough for PCs to recover and venture through the dungeon. The border is very thin here.
Clearly, "It's a pain in the ass" isn't getting through. HP damage is different because it's easy to heal. Ability damage, on the other hand, is basically a "Okay, I guess we have to stop doing this big quest for a few days" situation—or, alternatively, "Okay, I guess I have to suck at what I do for a few days."
If you're referring to the grog, that's an immersion-breaking no-save 1d3 Con damage plot device more than it's a poison.KC,
Our group is currently playing Skull & Shackles, and if poison were bumped up by one die size, we would have at least 3 additional party deaths. We do not consider it a nuisance. This is 100% from creatures that poison with every attack. Mostly Con damage. If your "fix" is addressing cases of single does poison (from a trap or an enemy who coats weapons in poison) then I guess I understand. If it's more than one dose, then I suggest you re-read the poison rules to see how the DCs and duration increase.
The first PC that died did so playing Heave with other crew members. His Con was down to 1 or 2 and the player made the conscious choice to keep going. But, I was actually referring to some underwater combats we've had. I have a decent Fort save, but other party members do not. We had to run away from a jellyfish. Twice.
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We had to run away from a jellyfish. Twice.
As you should. For example, one box jellyfish got enough poison to kill 60 human. Adventurers or not.
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Clearly, "It's a pain in the ass" isn't getting through. HP damage is different because it's easy to heal. Ability damage, on the other hand, is basically a "Okay, I guess we have to stop doing this big quest for a few days" situation—or, alternatively, "Okay, I guess I have to suck at what I do for a few days."
The Pathfinder has a lot of challenges out there and poisons are but one aspect of it. If this was a complaint about the system from a player, I would politely explain you to that that's how the system works, but I am assuming that you want an alternative houserule variant of it.
Before even suggesting house-rule, here is few items that solve ability damage in general if you didn't think of it:
- wand of lesser restoration
- antitoxin/antiplague
- bandages of rapid recovery
- delay poison/remove disease/neutralize poison
In general, ability damage is rarely a problem. It's situational and accumulates too slowly for it to become problematic, most often giving a -1 or -2 penalty on given stat checks. Out of 150 PFS games or even more, a rare few of 2-4 characters got knockout by the ability damage or poison in general. Also, your fix is problematic. You can cure any ability damage done from poison it with a simple "gulp" from a potion containing a level 2 spell. The game assumes that ability damage isn't cured that easily. The most equivalent cure for it is Restoration which is a level 4 spell. From that perspective, poison ability damage became absolutely easy to get rid of. Sure, you might die, but when did you ever see a person in Pathfinder dying from a poison? Almost never. A small dice bump from 1d2 to 1d3 is negligible also because you are mostly buffing stronger poisons with it while the relatively easy to pass Fortitude Save DC remains the same. But anyway, here is few solutions that might suit your taste:
- change the ability restoration mechanic from 1/3 ability score per 8/24 hours to 1 ability score per 2 hours (or less) for "round-based" poisons. In a 24 hours of rest you can probably resolve all of it.
- make an equivalent of a weaker lesser restoration spell for level 1 spell list that cures 1d2 ability damage from poisons. It should be fairly easy to buy a single wand of it.
- check the Unchained rules. I personally haven't, but if I remember right, the poison mechanic is altered by receiving conditions instead of ability damage.
That's currently all I could think of without dabbling with new game rules.
Adam