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Hey guys!
I've been having great fun playing PFS, currently got a level 5 unchained rogue, but he's ahead of the people that he started playing with - they're all level 1/2/3 still. So for when I'm playing with them, I need a new character! I've been GMing a bit, and applying that credit to a wizard that I've been finding interesting to build, but I also really love the idea of an Eldritch Guardian fighter - I like the consistency of a martial character like a fighter (no need to worry about managing spell slots each combat!) - although I know they're generally weaker - and I really love familairs, animal companions, mounts and eidolons. So I've been looking at building one.
Obviously going classic STR based fighter, and so the Mauler familiar archetype will work well with me - we share feats, so I can even go into Teamwork feats and use those, which are quite new to me! Now I've got some questions - I know some of these have been asked before, but I honestly have no clue if they've been resolved or not, or how I should approach it for PFS play:
Question 1: The archetype states that my fighter levels count as wizard levels for familiar terms, but this doesn't mean that I can take Improved Familiar to get something awesome like an Inevitable Arbitrer, as I have no arcane caster level. I presume this means I'm locked out of the Improved Familiar options. Question is - could I take Improved Familiar and get a familiar that has an arcane caster level requirement?
Question 2: If I share my feats with an animal, does that mean that it has my armour and weapon proficencies? If I picked a Monkey familiar say, and it grew to Medium size from the Mauler archetype, could it wield weapons and could I give it armour?
Question 3: Are the mauler archetype and the improved familiar feat incompatible due to the fact that they both modify the speak with others of their kind ability? This seems less clear cut than a normal conflict due to the difference between feat-archetype conflicts and archetype-archetype conflicts.
Question 4: There seemed to be some dispute as to whether you use a specific spell's rules for the changing from tiny/small to medium (factoring in strength changes and the like) or the normal rules for it. Do we know which one we use?
Question 5: A more general one - I've been looking at a Fox as my familiar, as it has 9 STR to start with, so it should get to some awesome strengths when medium and a mauler, and the + to ref saves is quite nice compared to some other options. This would lock out a lot of the cool possibilities with weapons and teamworks feats presumably, given they would require a spare set of limbs (though one could argue that if I went for CHA 13 and took Evolved Familiar, giving it another set of limps you could still do it). What would you lovely people recommend for an Eldritch Guardian fighter?
Thank you very much for your help already! :D
Animals can never use manufactured weapons in PFS. Not even monkeys. This has been gone over countless times. Similarly, since you only share your feats with your animal, you can only give your animal armor proficiency if you took a feat for it. Proficiency from class =/= feat.
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Animals can never use manufactured weapons in PFS. Not even monkeys. This has been gone over countless times. Similarly, since you only share your feats with your animal, you can only give your animal armor proficiency if you took a feat for it. Proficiency from class =/= feat.
But familiars aren't animals for one, and what about Improved Familiars like the Inevitable Arbiter that aren't animals in any way shape or form, and come naturally with manufactured weapons? :)
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Question 1: The archetype states that my fighter levels count as wizard levels for familiar terms, but this doesn't mean that I can take Improved Familiar to get something awesome like an Inevitable Arbitrer, as I have no arcane caster level. I presume this means I'm locked out of the Improved Familiar options. Question is - could I take Improved Familiar and get a familiar that has an arcane caster level requirement?
Question 2: If I share my feats with an animal, does that mean that it has my armour and weapon proficencies? If I picked a Monkey familiar say, and it grew to Medium size from the Mauler archetype, could it wield weapons and could I give it armour?
Question 3: Are the mauler archetype and the improved familiar feat incompatible due to the fact that they both modify the speak with others of their kind ability? This seems less clear cut than a normal conflict due to the difference between feat-archetype conflicts and archetype-archetype conflicts.
Question 4: There seemed to be some dispute as to whether you use a specific spell's rules for the changing from tiny/small to medium (factoring in strength changes and the like) or the normal rules for it. Do we know which one we use?
Question 5: A more general one - I've been looking at a Fox as my familiar, as it has 9 STR to start with, so it should get to some awesome strengths when medium and a mauler, and the + to ref saves is quite nice compared to some other options. This would lock out a lot of the cool possibilities with weapons and teamworks feats presumably, given they would require a spare set of limbs (though one could argue that if I went for CHA 13 and took Evolved Familiar, giving it another set of limps you could still do it). What would you lovely people recommend for an Eldritch Guardian fighter?
1) This is a debated topic, but most tables you sit at will probably judge you can't. Consider the answer as you need real levels in an arcane class, not effective levels.
2 a) It has been clarified that the armor and weapon proficiencies gained by the class are not feats and thus do not get shared. But, if a feat is specifically stated as being gained, like the Half-Elf racial trait Ancestral Arms, then those are shareable.
2 b) Familiars are not locked out of weapons and armor. But, you will run into issues of GMs saying your monkey does not have hands that can wield a weapon. There are some weapons that are described as bound to the wrist... but still, this will be an argument at the table. I would not recommend using weapons on an animal familiar at a table unless you always play with the same GM and they are okay with it.
3) Improved familiars can not be maulers for the reason you noted. Even if they gain that ability from another source, like the witch can allow, it is still not legal.
4) You do not use a specific spell. It has been clarified, though unofficially, that it is a polymorph effect. Use the information contained in the description for Transmutation(polymorph) and you should not have any issues.
5) Fox is one of the best maulers, for combat effectiveness. It will not be able to wield any weapons, as it has the form of a fox.
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But familiars aren't animals for one, and what about Improved Familiars like the Inevitable Arbiter that aren't animals in any way shape or form, and come naturally with manufactured weapons? :)Animals can never use manufactured weapons in PFS. Not even monkeys. This has been gone over countless times. Similarly, since you only share your feats with your animal, you can only give your animal armor proficiency if you took a feat for it. Proficiency from class =/= feat.
To the post you replied to:
If familiars are sentient, they can use weapons even if they are animals as the thing that bars them from using weapons is sentience. That, and anatomy.To you:
They are animals, at least animal familiars are. They only count as magical beasts for effects based on type. Such as "can this spell target me" and not "can I take this feat".
Whether familiars get any gear their statblock comes with is a debated topic.
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Question 1: The archetype states that my fighter levels count as wizard levels for familiar terms, but this doesn't mean that I can take Improved Familiar to get something awesome like an Inevitable Arbitrer, as I have no arcane caster level. I presume this means I'm locked out of the Improved Familiar options. Question is - could I take Improved Familiar and get a familiar that has an arcane caster level requirement?
Question 2: If I share my feats with an animal, does that mean that it has my armour and weapon proficencies? If I picked a Monkey familiar say, and it grew to Medium size from the Mauler archetype, could it wield weapons and could I give it armour?
Question 3: Are the mauler archetype and the improved familiar feat incompatible due to the fact that they both modify the speak with others of their kind ability? This seems less clear cut than a normal conflict due to the difference between feat-archetype conflicts and archetype-archetype conflicts.
Question 4: There seemed to be some dispute as to whether you use a specific spell's rules for the changing from tiny/small to medium (factoring in strength changes and the like) or the normal rules for it. Do we know which one we use?
Question 5: A more general one - I've been looking at a Fox as my familiar, as it has 9 STR to start with, so it should get to some awesome strengths when medium and a mauler, and the + to ref saves is quite nice compared to some other options. This would lock out a lot of the cool possibilities with weapons and teamworks feats presumably, given they would require a spare set of limbs (though one could argue that if I went for CHA 13 and took Evolved Familiar, giving it another set of limps you could still do it). What would you lovely people recommend for an Eldritch Guardian fighter?
1) This is a debated topic, but most tables you sit at will probably judge you can't. Consider the answer as you need real levels in an arcane class, not effective levels.
2 a) It has been...
Thanks for the help! So no Improved Familiar due to the fact that Fighter levels don't count as Arcane Spell Caster levels for improved familiar - thought as much. A little disappointing, but oh well :)
As to 2, seems like the weapons are bad, but the armour might be do-able, but I guess it could function effectively as barding anyway.
3: Makes sense, but a little disappointing again :P
4. The Polymorph spell is what I was meaning - there are also the base rules in the monster-creation guide where it's the rules like Tiny-> Small gives +4 STR, which would be a lot nicer than the Polymorph rules. So unofficially we should stick with Polymorph? Would like a ruling officially on this one, but if unofficial is all we get, then probably better safe than sorry.
5. Fox does make sense to me - figured I'd see if there were any other suggestions :) Are you sure it's illegal for play? I wasn't planning on taking it anyway - was going to dump CHA on this character. But according to Archives of Nethys it's on Page 1 of Ultimate Magic, which is listed as legal in Additional Resources, and it doesn't call out Evolved Familiar as banned like it does most feats :)
To the post you replied to:
If familiars are sentient, they can use weapons even if they are animals as the thing that bars them from using weapons is sentience. That, and anatomy.To you:
They are animals, at least animal familiars are. They only count as magical beasts for effects based on type. Such as "can this spell target me" and not "can I take this feat".Whether familiars get any gear their statblock comes with is a debated topic.
But there are non-animal familiars, like the constructs, outsiders and the like. Mostly from Improved Familiar. That's more what I was meaning :)
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...1) This is a debated topic, but most tables you sit at will probably judge you can't. Consider the answer as you need real levels in an arcane class, not effective levels.Question 1: The archetype states that my fighter levels count as wizard levels for familiar terms, but this doesn't mean that I can take Improved Familiar to get something awesome like an Inevitable Arbitrer, as I have no arcane caster level. I presume this means I'm locked out of the Improved Familiar options. Question is - could I take Improved Familiar and get a familiar that has an arcane caster level requirement?
Question 2: If I share my feats with an animal, does that mean that it has my armour and weapon proficencies? If I picked a Monkey familiar say, and it grew to Medium size from the Mauler archetype, could it wield weapons and could I give it armour?
Question 3: Are the mauler archetype and the improved familiar feat incompatible due to the fact that they both modify the speak with others of their kind ability? This seems less clear cut than a normal conflict due to the difference between feat-archetype conflicts and archetype-archetype conflicts.
Question 4: There seemed to be some dispute as to whether you use a specific spell's rules for the changing from tiny/small to medium (factoring in strength changes and the like) or the normal rules for it. Do we know which one we use?
Question 5: A more general one - I've been looking at a Fox as my familiar, as it has 9 STR to start with, so it should get to some awesome strengths when medium and a mauler, and the + to ref saves is quite nice compared to some other options. This would lock out a lot of the cool possibilities with weapons and teamworks feats presumably, given they would require a spare set of limbs (though one could argue that if I went for CHA 13 and took Evolved Familiar, giving it another set of limps you could still do it). What would you lovely people recommend for an Eldritch Guardian fighter?
If the armor is on a familiar you are eligible for, then it will be considered barding with all that comes with that.
It does not use the Polymorph spell. It is a polymorph effect. These are two different things. Though, the polymorph spell is a polymorph effect.
Polymorph effect information
This includes a table that shows a tiny creature is adjusted to small before gaining any benefits of the effect. In other words, +4 str and -2 dex.
It is also a size increase, so it does not stack with any other size increases.
Oh, you're right. It's all the other 'evolved' feats that are illegal. That one is just hard to qualify for.
And yes, there are plenty of non-animal familiars. You just can not qualify for them as an eldritch guardian without multiclassing.
A polymorphed critter uses the rules in the magic chapter of the polymorph section. That and the spell override the usual rules for size changing. That keeps a tiny critter from gaining obscene bonuses to dex when they shapeshiftinto another tiny creature.
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Question 1: The archetype states that my fighter levels count as wizard levels for familiar terms, but this doesn't mean that I can take Improved Familiar to get something awesome like an Inevitable Arbitrer, as I have no arcane caster level. I presume this means I'm locked out of the Improved Familiar options. Question is - could I take Improved Familiar and get a familiar that has an arcane caster level requirement?
So here is where things get a little sticky.
It is not clear if the Improved Familiar table means
(Arcane Caster) Level (i.e. level in the class that granted you your familiar.
or
Arcane (Caster Level) (i.e. Highest level you can cast spells at.)
The latter would imply that a multiclass character with 3 levels of wizard and magical knack would qualify for improved familiar, which I don't think is what is supposed to happen.
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If the armor is on a familiar you are eligible for, then it will be considered barding with all that comes with that.
It does not use the Polymorph spell. It is a polymorph effect. These are two different things. Though, the polymorph spell is a polymorph effect.
Polymorph effect information
This includes a table that shows a tiny creature is adjusted to small before gaining any benefits of the effect. In other words, +4 str and -2 dex.
It is also a size increase, so it does not stack with any other size increases.Oh, you're right. It's all the other 'evolved' feats that are illegal. That one is just hard to qualify for.
And yes, there are plenty of non-animal familiars. You just can not qualify for them as an eldritch guardian without multiclassing.
Yeah - using a polymorph effect is what I was meaning - forgot to focus on the difference between the two - sorry about that. It was pretty late last night when I posted this :
So with a Tiny creature as a familiar - say the fox, with 9 STR - it'll gain only +4 STR and lose 2 DEX. The Mauler ability that lets it change in size adds another +2, so going from a tiny to a medium fox will make it go to 15 STR? (16 STR at third level)
A polymorphed critter uses the rules in the magic chapter of the polymorph section. That and the spell override the usual rules for size changing. That keeps a tiny critter from gaining obscene bonuses to dex when they shapeshiftinto another tiny creature.
Yep - I'm pretty sure I get this one now! Thanks BNW :)
Question 1: The archetype states that my fighter levels count as wizard levels for familiar terms, but this doesn't mean that I can take Improved Familiar to get something awesome like an Inevitable Arbitrer, as I have no arcane caster level. I presume this means I'm locked out of the Improved Familiar options. Question is - could I take Improved Familiar and get a familiar that has an arcane caster level requirement?
So here is where things get a little sticky.
It is not clear if the Improved Familiar table means
(Arcane Caster) Level (i.e. level in the class that granted you your familiar.
or
Arcane (Caster Level) (i.e. Highest level you can cast spells at.)
The latter would imply that a multiclass character with 3 levels of wizard and magical knack would qualify for improved familiar, which I don't think is what is supposed to happen.
Yeah, I originally read it as (Arcane Caster) Level, and so thought I would qualify, but read people arguing over whether one qualifies. If PFS hasn't made it clear whether or not I can qualify, then I'll expect table variation and just go with the presumption that I don't. Doesn't change anything for me, as Mauler is more important than the Improved Familiar :)
So I can have a fox that goes to 15 STR from first level, is quadruped (could I even ride it if I were small size and so wanted to?) and so cannot use weapons (also is an animal, and so cannot use the weapons most likely - although animals specifically are stated as having less than 2 INT, and the fox has 6, so it's pretty weird, but the rules are weird like that all the time) but I can buy barding for it. It has no armour proficiencies, and so cannot use any armour without them unless it has no ACP - so can I get it Mithral Chain Shirt barding? More expensive as it's for a not-human shape, but should be doable. Does the barding have to be specifically for medium or tiny, and so it has to come off and on every time it changes size?
Well, at higher levels you can just get your familiar a +1 (mithral, if need be) chain shirt barding. Magic armor is assumed to resize, judging from the following:
"Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items."
I should note- earth elementals are one of the few that I could image work as a good weapon using build.
The elemental subtype allows them to get simple weapon proficiency if they have a human like shape (that is the main variance you will see with them; a minor question of whether they have such a shape).
They also have a decent str (16) and start off with a lot of natural armor before the familiar boosts. Grab some 0 ACP light armor, and just let them go.
But mauler familairs are probably better if you do something like maneuvers though, since some like the fox can have higher strength.
Keep in mind that armor on tiny things provides far less armor value.
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So I can have a fox that goes to 15 STR from first levelYou don't get Battle Form until 3rd level. So you'd be 16 Str when you can first Use it.
And yes, you can have a small character ride your familiar. Bestiary 5 has a Flying Fox that's also 16 at 3rd, which is enough to for most small characters.
My reading of the Polymorph rules is that the Tiny barding merges with the familiar and becomes inactive. So I bought medium barding to put on in battle form, since he rarely needs to shrink back.
The armor does not merge with your form. They are not changing form(type), they are only changing size. The polymorph rules specifically call out that if you do not change type, then armor does not meld and the armor changes size with you.
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.
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So I can have a fox that goes to 15 STR from first levelYou don't get Battle Form until 3rd level. So you'd be 16 Str when you can first Use it.
And yes, you can have a small character ride your familiar. Bestiary 5 has a Flying Fox that's also 16 at 3rd, which is enough to for most small characters.
My reading of the Polymorph rules is that the Tiny barding merges with the familiar and becomes inactive. So I bought medium barding to put on in battle form, since he rarely needs to shrink back.
Ah yes, true, thanks :)
I should note- earth elementals are one of the few that I could image work as a good weapon using build.
The elemental subtype allows them to get simple weapon proficiency if they have a human like shape (that is the main variance you will see with them; a minor question of whether they have such a shape).
They also have a decent str (16) and start off with a lot of natural armor before the familiar boosts. Grab some 0 ACP light armor, and just let them go.
But mauler familairs are probably better if you do something like maneuvers though, since some like the fox can have higher strength.
Would be pretty awesome, but sadly I'm locked out of the Improved Familiars as a fighter anyway :)
So I can have a fox that goes to 15 STR from first levelYou don't get Battle Form until 3rd level. So you'd be 16 Str when you can first Use it.
And yes, you can have a small character ride your familiar. Bestiary 5 has a Flying Fox that's also 16 at 3rd, which is enough to for most small characters.
My reading of the Polymorph rules is that the Tiny barding merges with the familiar and becomes inactive. So I bought medium barding to put on in battle form, since he rarely needs to shrink back.
The armor does not merge with your form. They are not changing form(type), they are only changing size. The polymorph rules specifically call out that if you do not change type, then armor does not meld and the armor changes size with you.
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.
Ah, that's awesome! :) Thanks very much. You're knowledgeable on this topic! :)
That means if it changes size with the animal, I can pay for a tiny-sized set of barding, and it will provide the AC boost of a medium sized set of barding when it's in its battle form? Cool!
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The armor does not merge with your form. They are not changing form(type), they are only changing size. TheSo I can have a fox that goes to 15 STR from first levelYou don't get Battle Form until 3rd level. So you'd be 16 Str when you can first Use it.
And yes, you can have a small character ride your familiar. Bestiary 5 has a Flying Fox that's also 16 at 3rd, which is enough to for most small characters.
My reading of the Polymorph rules is that the Tiny barding merges with the familiar and becomes inactive. So I bought medium barding to put on in battle form, since he rarely needs to shrink back.
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Ah, that's awesome! :) Thanks very much. You're knowledgeable on this topic! :)
That means if it changes size with the animal, I can pay for a tiny-sized set of barding, and it will provide the AC boost of a medium sized set of barding when it's in its battle form? Cool!
Correct. Basically, the savings will help overcome the extra cost of being 'unusual' armor.
And, I've spent a LOT of time reading over familiar rules and interactions. So, I'd hope I've learned something.
Also, if you are medium sized you can get the feat Undersized Mount and ride your medium creature. I have a build laying around that has an Arcanist(human) built around summoning riding his swoop lizard(mauler). Its strength isn't great, but the heavyload belt gets its encumbrance up high enough.