Can I duel wield at the beginning of a full-attack action and switch to single wield by the end legally?


Rules Questions


I am building a TWF daring challenger who tends to use feint actions so I'm going to give him Improved Two Weapon Feint.

If possible I would also like utilize the Precise strike ability Daring Challengers get to double or even triple the cavalier's challenge damage. The problem is that it can't be used with a weapon in the off-hand (unless this means I simply can't use the off-hand weapon/the bonus doesn't apply to an off-hand weapon but I doubt that)

Precise Strike wrote:
To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield other than a buckler.

I have an idea which would possibly make this work but it's cheese and I'm not entirely sure if it's legal.

Step 1-I attack with a sword in each hand which would mean I could use Two Weapon Feint. From here I would either go to step two or Attack with the off-hand weapon if that's required to count for the feat to work.

Step 2-Use the two free actions of dropping a weapon and placing both hands on the one still held (or just dropping the weapon and keeping the primary hand weapon).
Dropping an item

FAQ, What kind of action is it to remove your hand from a two-handed weapon or re-grab it with both hands? wrote:
Both are free actions. For example, a wizard wielding a quarterstaff can let go of the weapon with one hand as a free action...and grasp the weapon again with that hand as a free action...

Step 3-Attack with the single weapon in hand allowing me to utilize the Precise Strike ability (I believe the BAB used would be the -5 so if the character was level 15 I would use the BAB of 10 but please correct me if I'm wrong (if this could even work)).

Step 4-Hope I can get my weapon back from the floor.

So does this actually sound like something that could work or what?


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It is cheesey but a GM might allow it. However you still have to take the TWF penalty for the entire round.

Liberty's Edge

Why wouldn't you just use a cestus or a spiked gauntlet instead of always dropping a weapon, and trying to reclaim it later?


What's the point of step 2? There's nothing saying you can't be wielding a weapon in the off-hand to use precise strike - just that you can't attack with a weapon held there.

Moreover, can you get enough benefit out of feinting to offset the -5 you take to hit because you have to use your first iterative attack to make the feint?

The Concordance

You must use Two Weapon Fighting for Two Weapon Rend, which means you are attacking with a weapon in the other hand that round. No Precise Strike.

You are able to get the two-handing bonuses on that last attack, however.:)


wraithstrike wrote:
It is cheesey but a GM might allow it. However you still have to take the TWF penalty for the entire round.

So it would be a -7 from the full BAB. Alright, that could still be workable.

Deighton Thrane wrote:
Why wouldn't you just use a cestus or a spiked gauntlet instead of always dropping a weapon, and trying to reclaim it later?

I guess because I didn't think they worked in the same way as wielding two swords but all considered I guess it makes sense that they would. But another question that arises then is if the Cestus counts as TWF and is always on, would it allow me to use Precise Strike? If so then what's the point in using the Cestus given the damage dice increase of the Short Sword when I can just keep the sword in the off-hand but not use it?

Bill Dunn wrote:
What's the point of step 2? There's nothing saying you can't be wielding a weapon in the off-hand to use precise strike - just that you can't attack with a weapon held there.

My reading of it is that the hand has to be open for the skill to take effect. Given that it allows the buckler to be used which is the only shield that can be wielded along with weapon in the hand indicated that this is the case.

Bill Dunn wrote:
Moreover, can you get enough benefit out of feinting to offset the -5 you take to hit because you have to use your first iterative attack to make the feint?

That will probably depend on the enemy but I think so. Some enemies of course have low dex/dodge bonuses (or are immune to feint) but I think enough are there to make this workable. And if not I can retrain the feats for something better.

ShieldLawrence wrote:
You must use Two Weapon Fighting for Two Weapon Rend, which means you are attacking with a weapon in the other hand that round. No Precise Strike.

So you're saying that it would not be a legal maneuver to use the TWF on the first attack for the feat then switch to one-weapon fighting for the Precise strike?


Surely you are either two weapon fighting or two-handed fighting or one handed fighting? Is it allowed in the rules to chop and change between these stances in the same round?

Apologies if I have missed something obvious... ... ...


The Sword wrote:

Surely you are either two weapon fighting or two-handed fighting or one handed fighting? Is it allowed in the rules to chop and change between these stances in the same round?

Apologies if I have missed something obvious... ... ...

That's what I'm asking, if it's possible to change the stance mid full-attack in order to gain the benefit of two different skills which specify the use of these different stances.


No. That is trying to have your cake and eat it. The benefits or penalties of a stance apply to that rounds attacks.

As regards the precise strike ability of swash buckets it is fairly specific in the text:

"Precise Strike...To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield other than a buckler..."


By the most literal interpretation he can use the ability as long as his off-hand is empty so dropping the weapon works, BUT I am sure that was not the intent. That is why I think it is cheesy, and the GM may not allow it.

I would not allow it, but some GM's reward players for being able to talk around the rules.


There is a FAQ that specify that 2 weapon fighting only applies during your turn.

FAQ wrote:


Two-Weapon Fighting: If you use this on your turn to attack with two weapons, do you also take that penalty on attacks of opportunity made before the start of your next turn?

No. The penalties end as soon as you have completed the full-attack action that allowed you to attack with both weapons. Any attacks of opportunity you make are at your normal attack bonus.
Generally speaking, penalties on attacks made during your turn do not carry over to attacks of opportunity unless they specifically state otherwise (such as the penalty from using Power Attack or Combat Expertise).
This answer originally appeared in the 9/25/12 Paizo blog.

No penality means the "style" is not in effect, so you are for all intent and purpose using a single weapon during AOO. Note however that your off hand is still "wielding a weapon" and not "free".


Hmm. I think you are being very generous. If a person uses two weapon fighting or a feat that equates to it like two weapon feint then they are attacking with their off hand.


That is good to know Dekalinder. We were playing AOp that way and it makes sense.

However in this case we are talking about actions during the players turn.


Precise Strike wrote:
To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield other than a buckler.

Once you perform your first off-hand attack you are considered attacking for the entire action, in this case the full round action. You can't "granulary" consider each attack as his own, otherwise the restriction does not make sense, since you are never rolling for both at once.


I think, as soon as you make your first attack you decide whether to two weapon fight or not as you need to determine the penalty before the first attack.


Shield Lawrence seemed to be suggesting that you can get two-handed bonuses by using a weapon with two hands during a full attack where you previously used TWF. I doubt that's the case, especially since it would mean that you could simply make all your attacks with the "off-hand" weapon first, drop it if necessary (not necessary for something like a spiked gauntlet), and then make two-handed attacks with your primary weapon. I'd be surprised it that's RAI.

On the other hand, I'm not 100% sure how using TWF during your turn and then putting both hands on one weapon at the end should affect AoOs. I've permitted the two-handing bonuses in those rare instances where it has come up in the past though. I suppose that this might come into play more often with double weapons.


So in the same idea, if you have two weapon feint, and you are two weapon fighting, and your under lvl 5, assuming only 2 attacks in the round. If you use your first "attack" to use the feint, does your second attack gain the precise damage?

Text on Two Weapon Feint reads you forgo the first attack, and by definition, you decline to make, or refrain to take.

Precise strike reads that you cant attack with your other hand, never stating main, or offhand, just one hand cant attack.


Rylden wrote:

So in the same idea, if you have two weapon feint, and you are two weapon fighting, and your under lvl 5, assuming only 2 attacks in the round. If you use your first "attack" to use the feint, does your second attack gain the precise damage?

Text on Two Weapon Feint reads you forgo the first attack, and by definition, you decline to make, or refrain to take.

Precise strike reads that you cant attack with your other hand, never stating main, or offhand, just one hand cant attack.

The wording is such that it could mean two things.

A) You can't have a weapon or shield in the off-hand when using Precise Strike in order to gain the extra damage

B) You can hold a weapon in both hands but you can't use the second in order to gain the Precise strike damage

I took it as A because it specifies that the buckler can be wielded in the offhand and the buckler shield is the only shield that isn't wielded directly in the hand allowing one to have an item, second weapon or two handed weapon in the hand at the same time (thus having nothing means the hand is free) but I've also read it as B due to wording.

The Concordance

If you attack with a weapon in each hand, you cannot use Precise Strike for your iterative, as you attacked with a weapon in your other hand already.

If you TW Feint with your first attack instead of attacking, you should be able to apply Precise Strike to the off hand weapon.

The Concordance

FAQ wrote:

Multiple Weapons, Extra Attacks, and Two-Weapon Fighting: If I have extra attacks from a high BAB, can I make attacks with different weapons and not incur a two-weapon fighting penalty?

Yes. Basically, you only incur TWF penalties if you are trying to get an extra attack per round.
...(Edited for length)...
Using the longsword/mace example, if you use two-weapon fighting you actually have fewer options than if you aren't. Your options are (ignoring the primary/off hand penalties):
(A') primary longsword at +6, primary longsword at +1, off hand mace at +6
(B') primary mace at +6, primary mace at +1, off hand longsword at +6
In other words, once you decide you're using two-weapon fighting to get that extra attack on your turn (which you have to decide before you take any attacks on your turn), that decision locks you in to the format of "my primary weapon gets my main attack and my iterative attack, and my off hand weapon only gets the extra attack, and I apply two-weapon fighting penalties."

This is a relevant FAQ from the CRB. It suggests that you cannot drop the main hand (feinting) weapon, and then get your iterative with the off hand weapon. The main hand weapon gains the iterative attacks always. I think you are able to drop the off hand weapon in order to two-hand the main hand weapon for the iterative attack for the STR/PA bonus, but I'm not positive.


I'd decidedly use a double weapon style format for this, adjusting grip slightly rather than dropping and picking up weapons. If the cheddar is allowed at all, at least make it convenient on yourself.


I'm assuming you've thought of this idea but rejected it due to it eating your swift action for the round (which a bunch of the swashbuckler stuff needs sadly). Here goes in case you haven't though.

You could also consider going down the Moonlight stalker feint if you were hoping for another way to get quicker action feints.

Needing to have concealment isn't all that bad as a Minor cloak of displacement will provide you with all you need in terms of propagating that.


I would argue that if something uses up an attack through two weapon fighting, which Two Weapon Feint clearly does, that it counts as using Two Weapon Fighting


This whole thing sounds terribly convoluted and probably illegal. Even if the DM allows it initially you might end up seeing your PC get disabled later on by an errata or FAQ.

What is it you're trying to accomplish though? Do you need the enemy to be denied Dex because you have sneak attack damage? Are you just trying to gain attack bonuses? I wonder if you've considered the Shatter Defenses feat. I've always thought it could be fun for a Cavalier from the Order of the Cockatrice. You'd not only make the enemy flat footed but get an additional +2 to hit them. Meanwhile they'd get -2 to hit you (-4 if you use a Cruel weapon)

If the idea of spending a standard action to intimidate your foes bothers you there are various other ways to accomplish it such as Cornugon Smash and Enforcer. The former has the advantage of pairing well with the Hurtful feat, which allows you to attack a foe you've just intimidated as a swift action (potentially nice if you decide to intimidate all foes within 30' as a standard action since you'd still get to attack once)

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