This comes up every once in awhile. Strictly speaking the Polymorph sub school states "constant bonuses" which is a specific game mechanic definition. Not "constant benefits" which would cover things like energy resistance or such.
Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.
So 1 was good.
Point 2 can be iffy with natural armor. If the effect that grants you a shape gives a natural armor bonus, you may have two competing bonuses and would only get the larger of the two. It becomes one of those "it depends" situations. There is a difference between a natural armor bonus and something that increases natural armor, which makes it more complicated.Point 3 is off because of the reason explained above.
Wild Shape (Su): At 4th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the beast shape I spell, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. The form chosen must be that of an animal with which the druid is familiar.
Beast shape I, along with higher level versions, the elemental body spells, and the plant shape spells, are all Transmutation (Polymorph) effects.
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.
So,
1) Correct.
2) Correct, as long as the "natural armor bonus" from the item is actually an enhancement bonus to natural armor (as with an amulet of natural armor).
3) Incorrect, by a strict reading of RAW ("cease to function"). Spell storing, since it requires activation, is definitely out; damage reduction, as a property of the substance of which the armor is made, is out (it's "not there"); and "cease to function" is pretty specific in the case of magic abilities (similar to how magic armor and bracers of armor interact).
...
Point 2 can be iffy with natural armor. If the effect that grants you a shape gives a natural armor bonus, you may have two competing bonuses and would only get the larger of the two. It becomes one of those "it depends" situations. There is a difference between a natural armor bonus and something that increases natural armor, which makes it more complicated....
FYI, most of the non-polymorph stuff that affects natural armor is an enhancement bonus to it.
...giving him an enhancement bonus to his natural armor from +1 to +5, depending on the kind of amulet
The effect grants a +2 enhancement bonus to the creature's existing natural armor bonus.
Now, if you had a hypothetical non-polymorph effect that gave you a base natural armor bonus, then it would not stack with wildshape and you would simply take the best. However, to my knowledge every ability that grants a base natural armor bonus is a polymorph effect, so as a rule of thumb you can simply treat wildshape natural armor as stacking with everything.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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1) correct
But you will see table variance on the RAW of using a Bracers of Armor and whether or not you keep the AC bonus.
2) Yes
Yes you might have overlapping bonuses and take the higher or not depending on whether it is an enhancement bonus to natural armor.
3) Highly dependant on your GM's interpretation of continuous to be restricted to +/- bonuses or "non numerical bonuses" which have precedence in developer posts.
Things like Spell Storing wouldn't be usable as they are activated.
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Concerning #3
It doesn't expliciy say what happens to non-activated non-bonuses.
Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function).
^This an explicit allowance for constant bonuses functioning.
Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form.
^This is an explicit ban on items that require activation.
It doesn't tell us what happens to items with constant (non-activated) benefits (non-bonuses). I assume since the rules don't tell us that they turn off, they must default to remaining on. A Fortification property on armor should continue to function.
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Agreed that there is some confusion/table variation regarding #3. My group errs on the side of things working (anything that doesn't require an action to activate or have limited uses/day is OK), but if this is PFS you should assume a more conservative interpretation.
However, to my knowledge every ability that grants a base natural armor bonus is a polymorph effect, so as a rule of thumb you can simply treat wildshape natural armor as stacking with everything.
Mutagen grants a base natural armour bonus and is not a polymorph effect.
If you want to be an armored druid, assume your favorite critter form and go get fitted for barding. cast or have cast mage armor on yourself (a wand is cheap) in case you need to leave critter form
Or go with the mountain druid archetype, select the Plant/Growth domain instead of an animal companion, and use wild shape for scouting/travel (birds work well) until 12th level (when it can be used for giant form I). The Plant/Growth domain grants enlarge person and righteous might as bonus spells (as well as a swift action enlarge person effect as a domain power); these work well for combat utility. This type of druid focuses on normal weapons and armor (which are automatically re-sized with enlarge person, righteous might, giant form I, and giant form II), so the wild armor ability is not a "must have."
Concerning #3
It doesn't expliciy say what happens to non-activated non-bonuses.
Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function).
^This an explicit allowance for constant bonuses functioning.
Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form.
^This is an explicit ban on items that require activation.
It doesn't tell us what happens to items with constant (non-activated) benefits (non-bonuses). I assume since the rules don't tell us that they turn off, they must default to remaining on. A Fortification property on armor should continue to function.
Incorrect, the rules tell us what does happen. If they say something does happen, it does. If they are silent, the assumption is that thing doesn't happen.
Your assumption amounts to "the rules don't tell me I can't, so I can" which never leads anywhere good.
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Concerning #3
It doesn't expliciy say what happens to non-activated non-bonuses.
Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function).
^This an explicit allowance for constant bonuses functioning.
Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form.
^This is an explicit ban on items that require activation.
It doesn't tell us what happens to items with constant (non-activated) benefits (non-bonuses). I assume since the rules don't tell us that they turn off, they must default to remaining on. A Fortification property on armor should continue to function.
Incorrect, the rules tell us what does happen. If they say something does happen, it does. If they are silent, the assumption is that thing doesn't happen.
Your assumption amounts to "the rules don't tell me I can't, so I can" which never leads anywhere good.
That isn't the case. The rules tell me that I can use magic items. The polymorph rules then ban magic items that require activation. There is silence on what happens to anything that isn't a constant bonus or activation-dependent.. It must then default to the general rule: I can use magic items.
I didn't mean to suggest that when the rules don't say something, nothing stops me from flying around shooting lasers out of my eyes.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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silence on what happens to anything that isn't a constant bonus or activation-dependent.
Plus the Anti-Numerical Bonus side has another issue. There is loads of indication that the glossary definition of bonus restricting it to a numerical bonus is more restrictive than the developer use of the word bonus.
In short, a bonus is something you gain that is desired or beneficial.
Concerning #3
It doesn't expliciy say what happens to non-activated non-bonuses.
Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function).
^This an explicit allowance for constant bonuses functioning.
Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form.
^This is an explicit ban on items that require activation.
It doesn't tell us what happens to items with constant (non-activated) benefits (non-bonuses). I assume since the rules don't tell us that they turn off, they must default to remaining on. A Fortification property on armor should continue to function.
Incorrect, the rules tell us what does happen. If they say something does happen, it does. If they are silent, the assumption is that thing doesn't happen.
Your assumption amounts to "the rules don't tell me I can't, so I can" which never leads anywhere good.
That isn't the case. The rules tell me that I can use magic items. The polymorph rules then ban magic items that require activation. There is silence on what happens to anything that isn't a constant bonus or activation-dependent.. It must then default to the general rule: I can use magic items.
I didn't mean to suggest that when the rules don't say something, nothing stops me from flying around shooting lasers out of my eyes.
You are stopping that train of thought early.
You can use the specific magic items it says you can.
Silence doesn't mean allowance.
silence on what happens to anything that isn't a constant bonus or activation-dependent.Plus the Anti-Numerical Bonus side has another issue. There is loads of indication that the glossary definition of bonus restricting it to a numerical bonus is more restrictive than the developer use of the word bonus.
In short, a bonus is something you gain that is desired or beneficial.
Less so an issue for the side, we have posts from Paizo stating that when something isn't defined mechanically, we should be using the general English meaning.
We unfortunately have a specific and fully explained game glossary definition for the mechanic.
Obviously if you want it to work, it is easier to say they meant it to and it is sloppy writing, because well, reasons. I just try to follow the rules as spelled out in the book and try not to second guess and assume everything that doesn't work they way I want it to, to be "a mistake by the writers".
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Concerning #3
It doesn't expliciy say what happens to non-activated non-bonuses.
Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function).
^This an explicit allowance for constant bonuses functioning.
Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form.
^This is an explicit ban on items that require activation.
It doesn't tell us what happens to items with constant (non-activated) benefits (non-bonuses). I assume since the rules don't tell us that they turn off, they must default to remaining on. A Fortification property on armor should continue to function.
Incorrect, the rules tell us what does happen. If they say something does happen, it does. If they are silent, the assumption is that thing doesn't happen.
Your assumption amounts to "the rules don't tell me I can't, so I can" which never leads anywhere good.
That isn't the case. The rules tell me that I can use magic items. The polymorph rules then ban magic items that require activation. There is silence on what happens to anything that isn't a constant bonus or activation-dependent.. It must then default to the general rule: I can use magic items.
I didn't mean to suggest that when the rules don't say something, nothing stops me from flying around shooting lasers out of my eyes.
You are stopping that train of thought early.
You can use the specific magic items it says you can.
Silence doesn't mean allowance.
The allowance isn't due to silence, it's due to rules stating that generally I am allowed to use magic items.
The polymorph rules state that I cannot use items that require activation. It does not state that all items become unusable, it only states the ones that require activation.
That means that in accordance with the general rule, I can use my magic items minus the ones that require activation.
If the Polymorph section of the rules stated that all items except for those that provide a constant bonus aren't usable, then you would be correct. Such a rule is not stated.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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easier to say they meant it to and it is sloppy writing,
You kinda missed my point.
Developers say that bonus is not limited to glossary meaning. Yet you ignore how they wrote the book to deliberately derive a different meaning than they get when they read the rules without using the glossary as a limiter.
If you got that before, I can't help you.
easier to say they meant it to and it is sloppy writing,You kinda missed my point.
Developers say that bonus is not limited to glossary meaning. Yet you ignore how they wrote the book to deliberately derive a different meaning than they get when they read the rules without using the glossary as a limiter.
If you got that before, I can't help you.
I haven't seen the FAQ with that stated, mind linking it?
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I haven't seen the FAQ with that stated, mind linking it?easier to say they meant it to and it is sloppy writing,You kinda missed my point.
Developers say that bonus is not limited to glossary meaning. Yet you ignore how they wrote the book to deliberately derive a different meaning than they get when they read the rules without using the glossary as a limiter.
If you got that before, I can't help you.
Although "bonus" is a defined term, even in the CRB the word is used outside of that context; Bonus Feats are an example of this.
"Bonus" isn't even the part that matters. It is completely dependent on whether the magic item requires activation. Those that require activation cannot be used, everything else is fine (barring armor/natural armor bonuses of course).
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I haven't seen the FAQ with that stated, mind linking it?
I never said there was a Paizo FAQ that says that, but developers have repetitively said so.
You can however go back to 3.5 when they did answer this:
Q: Can a character benefit from multiple nightsticks (Libris Mortis 78) or multiple orange prism ioun stones (DMG 260)?
A: Neither of these items provides extra bonuses in multiples. The rules for stacking (Rules Compendium 21) do not allow untyped bonuses to stack if they come from the same source. However, this does lead to an interesting question: could a character use a nightstick and then grab a second nightstick to use? The Sage recommends Dungeon Masters limit the nightstick and similar items to one a day.
In this (and in other places), the word bonus is consistently used outside the glossary definition. As is many things in the glossary, actually. So any time you restrict yourself to a glossary definition, you artificially restrict yourself in general.
I haven't seen the FAQ with that stated, mind linking it?I never said there was a Paizo FAQ that says that, but developers have repetitively said so.
You can however go back to 3.5 when they did answer this:
In this (and in other places), the word bonus is consistently used outside the glossary definition. As is many things in the glossary, actually. So any time you restrict yourself to a glossary definition, you artificially restrict yourself in general.Q: Can a character benefit from multiple nightsticks (Libris Mortis 78) or multiple orange prism ioun stones (DMG 260)?
A: Neither of these items provides extra bonuses in multiples. The rules for stacking (Rules Compendium 21) do not allow untyped bonuses to stack if they come from the same source. However, this does lead to an interesting question: could a character use a nightstick and then grab a second nightstick to use? The Sage recommends Dungeon Masters limit the nightstick and similar items to one a day.
I can tell you with 100% certainty that 3.5 Sage advice means absolutely didly and squat in regards to PFRPG intent. That particular point has been mentioned repeatedly since the inception of PFRPG and why there have been conflicting FAQs between versions.
That was why I asked if there was an actual Paizo quote.