Using the best 'mental stat' for Diplomacy DC's?

[strayshift]

The house-rule would roughly go: Use the highest stat bonus of Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma to gain the diplomacy DC.

The reasoning being that if a person is smart enough to see through your arguments or wise enough to sense there is something not quite right that is just as good to resist your efforts at persusion than if they had a high charisma.

All thoughts welcome.

[alexd1976]

This will do one thing:

Empower casters even more than normal.

If everyone is playing a caster, this will result in everyone competing to be party face.

Could be interesting.

I don't think I would do this though, CHA is the stat normally used, so Sorcerers/Clerics/Paladins tend to be the social ones.

It normally forces people to spread their points around a bit, rather than min-maxing.

I mean, if you use INT for social, then CHA will for SURE be at 7 unless you play a class that uses it... because, why not?

Just go to 25 point buy instead, it isn't as huge a jump as you might think.

[Ethereal Gears]

I don't think the OP means using the highest mental stat for making Diplomacy checks, but rather to set the DC for them.

I don't think it would unbalance things terribly. This would make Diplomacy slighty worse, since more creatures would have a shot at resisting it, but it's already a pretty good skill so I don't think it would be a terrible nerf. I've always personally just thought the DC should be Wis-based out of the gate, but that's a matter of taste, I reckon.

Cheers,
- Gears

[alexd1976]

Ethereal Gears wrote:

I don't think the OP means using the highest mental stat for making Diplomacy checks, but rather to set the DC for them.

I don't think it would unbalance things terribly. This would make Diplomacy slighty worse, since more creatures would have a shot at resisting it, but it's already a pretty good skill so I don't think it would be a terrible nerf. I've always personally just thought the DC should be Wis-based out of the gate, but that's a matter of taste, I reckon.

Cheers,
- Gears

Whoops!

Yeah, that isn't a huge change... I've often thought that the DCs are a bit low anyway...

Sorry about my first comment. Still drinking my daily coffee. :D

[Cyrad]

Sounds like a good idea, actually.

[Nox Aeterna]

This is a imporant "IF" to me.

IF you also dont roll diplomacy against the PCs or have them roll against one another and thus this change only really empowers NPCs , then i think it is reasonable.

If you do , then i wouldnt make the change , since compared to the other stats ALL charisma has going for it is the use on social skills reason it is dumped often by pretty much everyone not using it for something else also , like a sorc/bard...

[strayshift]

Cheers folks.

Yes, I accept that it tends to favour casters who are more likely to have a high mental stat.

Just to clarify though, this is for the dc of the diplomacy check to be rolled against by a pc, i.e. the npcs resistance to it.

[Wei Ji the Learner]

Isn't there a feat or class feature that does that already?

[strayshift]

Nox Aeterna wrote:

This is a imporant "IF" to me.

IF you also dont roll diplomacy against the PCs or have them roll against one another and thus this change only really empowers NPCs , then i think it is reasonable.

If you do , then i wouldnt make the change , since compared to the other stats ALL charisma has going for it is the use on social skills reason it is dumped often by pretty much everyone not using it for something else also , like a sorc/bard...

Again a fair point, I personally don't roll diplomacy against the pcs, it is role-played out but often the diplomacy skill checks are used to replicate the mechanic of a characters persuasiveness in non-essential social encounters to keep the game going (i.e. we don't role-play the trivial stuff & diplomacy rolls can support a role-played section of the game).

[strayshift]

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

Isn't there a feat or class feature that does that already?

No there is a trait that allows intelligence to be used as the primary stat for the player making the roll, this is for the highest mental stat to be used to set an npcs resistance to a pcs use of diplomacy.

[master_marshmallow]

Social skills are the hardest to transpose into gaming terms and mechanics because so much of it can be "role played out" by the players.

I think this could be interesting, but I would recommend waiting until Ultimate Intrigue comes out with new rules for social interactions being its own form of combat.

[Nox Aeterna]

strayshift wrote:

Nox Aeterna wrote:

This is a imporant "IF" to me.

IF you also dont roll diplomacy against the PCs or have them roll against one another and thus this change only really empowers NPCs , then i think it is reasonable.

If you do , then i wouldnt make the change , since compared to the other stats ALL charisma has going for it is the use on social skills reason it is dumped often by pretty much everyone not using it for something else also , like a sorc/bard...

Again a fair point, I personally don't roll diplomacy against the pcs, it is role-played out but often the diplomacy skill checks are used to replicate the mechanic of a characters persuasiveness in non-essential social encounters to keep the game going (i.e. we don't role-play the trivial stuff & diplomacy rolls can support a role-played section of the game).

Then i dont see any issue with it , empowering NPCs is just fine since they dont have dump stat mentality to begin with.

But like others said , this wont be helping in the martials case.

[alexd1976]

Nox Aeterna wrote:

strayshift wrote:

Nox Aeterna wrote:

This is a imporant "IF" to me.

IF you also dont roll diplomacy against the PCs or have them roll against one another and thus this change only really empowers NPCs , then i think it is reasonable.

If you do , then i wouldnt make the change , since compared to the other stats ALL charisma has going for it is the use on social skills reason it is dumped often by pretty much everyone not using it for something else also , like a sorc/bard...

Again a fair point, I personally don't roll diplomacy against the pcs, it is role-played out but often the diplomacy skill checks are used to replicate the mechanic of a characters persuasiveness in non-essential social encounters to keep the game going (i.e. we don't role-play the trivial stuff & diplomacy rolls can support a role-played section of the game).

Then i dont see any issue with it , empowering NPCs is just fine since they dont have dump stat mentality to begin with.

But like others said , this wont be helping in the martials case.

Actually it would a bit... whichever stat is highest is used, might result in a SLIGHTLY better DC. :D

We add 5 to most DCs (social/intimidate stuff etc).

[Cyrad]

Nox Aeterna wrote:

This is a imporant "IF" to me.

IF you also dont roll diplomacy against the PCs or have them roll against one another and thus this change only really empowers NPCs , then i think it is reasonable.

If you do , then i wouldnt make the change , since compared to the other stats ALL charisma has going for it is the use on social skills reason it is dumped often by pretty much everyone not using it for something else also , like a sorc/bard...

You cannot use Diplomacy against PCs. The rules specifically say it must be against NPCs.

[strayshift]

Cyrad wrote:

Nox Aeterna wrote:

This is a imporant "IF" to me.

IF you also dont roll diplomacy against the PCs or have them roll against one another and thus this change only really empowers NPCs , then i think it is reasonable.

If you do , then i wouldnt make the change , since compared to the other stats ALL charisma has going for it is the use on social skills reason it is dumped often by pretty much everyone not using it for something else also , like a sorc/bard...

You cannot use Diplomacy against PCs. The rules specifically say it must be against NPCs.

And in that respect, let's let them be smart and wise as well as charismatic?

[Rub-Eta]

strayshift wrote:

The reasoning being that if a person is smart enough to see through your arguments or wise enough to sense there is something not quite right that is just as good to resist your efforts at persusion than if they had a high charisma.

You can't see through a Diplomacy check. A Diplomacy check is sincere, there is no "not quite right" about it, no deception. If that's the case, you should be rolling Bluff, not Diplomacy.

Personally, I often forget to even add Cha to the DC.

I wouldn't use these house rule, firstly because they don't address a problem in the game but also because it would only serve to make Diplomacy checks harder (and that affects players more than NPCs) and I don't want to punish my players for attempting Diplomacy.
I'd rather even remove the Cha from the DC.