The monk is not faster than someone with Haste until 12th level. And it does not stack with magic boots.
Would it be overpowered to change the monk's speed bonus from enhancement to something else?
Unnamed bonus?
No, it wouldn't be at all.
Overpowered no, but you are making a poor comparison.
Haste is a rounds per level buff. Monk speed bonus is an always on ability.
Monks are +10' faster than a normal person starting at 3rd level, +20' faster at 6th. That is only 10' slower than haste at the same level it would become available and it is on 24/7. Things stacking in 3.0 was what caused problems, PFRPG Has attempted to make it less so.
Overpowered no, but you are making a poor comparison.
Haste is a rounds per level buff. Monk speed bonus is an always on ability.
Monks are +10' faster than a normal person starting at 3rd level, +20' faster at 6th. That is only 10' slower than haste at the same level it would become available and it is on 24/7. Things stacking in 3.0 was what caused problems, PFRPG Has attempted to make it less so.
Haste does a lot more than just that. It's an augment to attack rolls, AC, and Reflex saves as well, not to mention that extra full-BAB attack. Plus, it applies to a small platoon's worth of people with a single casting. Monk's only get the speed boost and they need a lot of experience to make it as good as a single 3rd level spell. Also, their speed boost is lost if they're encumbered or wearing armor, something haste outright ignores. Before level 12, which is where the majority of all Pathfinder games take place, a monk's speed boost just sucks in comparison to a low-tier spell that does a lot more for numerous people with no restrictions at all. Which, when you consider this is an entire class feature for the monk, is kinda depressing.
As far as stacking goes, the reason people bring up the type of the monk speed bonus is, Sqwonk noted, it's enhancement-typed and therefore stacks with nothing else in the game, with VERY rare exceptions. While stacking bonuses to d20 rolls and damage can be an issue (I actually agree heartily with this), it's hard to see how a man running a little faster from both his mystical brawler training and his special magic boots is something to even register on the map of "Must be careful of this combination because balance".
While not egregiously overpowered, I think it's a bad idea. Even without a speed boost, haste is still amazing on the monk.
Forgive me for not sitting in the boat that any buff to the monk is a good one.
It feels inconsistent to have Monks have an enhancement bonus. Consider that Barbarians, Clerics, and Bloodragers can all move faster without such limitations, starting at level 1. (Fast movement, travel domain, and fast movement again respectively).
Hard to really compare. The barbarian's fast movement doesn't scale with level. The Travel Domain isn't a good measurement, either. It's overpowered, especially considering that nearly all domains aren't very strong. Despite the number of new subdomains, it's still one of the best Domains in the game.
So, can anyone point out a single potential balance issue with running quickly?
Action economy stays the same, so combat use is relatively small, limited to slightly higher mobility (Not like it's in the class description or anything...). Utility is limited, basically restrained to increasing the distance you can jump in one turn.
So, can anyone point out a single potential balance issue with running quickly?
Because movement speed is valuable in this game? Especially for a melee combatant? Unless you're playing adventures where the GM does nothing but put you through dungeons with with 20x20-foot rooms. I'm running a 3-year campaign with a monk and my group and I agree that the monk's fast movement is pretty underrated.
I do agree with My Self that it would have been nice to standardize the class feature across the classes rather than have the monk's work differently and raise questions about how they stack. It's one of the annoying things about classes that share class features.
So, can anyone point out a single potential balance issue with running quickly?Because movement speed is valuable in this game? Especially for a melee combatant? Unless you're playing adventures where the GM does nothing but put you through dungeons with with 20x20-foot rooms. I'm running a 3-year campaign with a monk and my group and I agree that the monk's fast movement is pretty underrated.
So the mobile fighter class might actually be able to traverse the battlefield better than other fighters?
Say it isn't so.
I said balance issues, not why it would be valuable. Even though you're very much overrating movement speed.
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In combat, high movement speed is situationally useful but rarely that important. I personally don't think stacking haste speed increase with monk movement unbalances the game as a whole, but it can make for an unexpected surprise in some encounters.
This is pretty much my thoughts on the matter.
By the time where it might matter, flight is a very common option. Which makes the whole issue moot.
Higher movement speed also means being faster when moving with half speed (stealth / avoiding AOOs). Hence it can also make a difference on rather small maps.
So, can anyone point out a single potential balance issue with running quickly?Because movement speed is valuable in this game? Especially for a melee combatant? Unless you're playing adventures where the GM does nothing but put you through dungeons with with 20x20-foot rooms. I'm running a 3-year campaign with a monk and my group and I agree that the monk's fast movement is pretty underrated.So the mobile fighter class might actually be able to traverse the battlefield better than other fighters?
Say it isn't so.
I said balance issues, not why it would be valuable. Even though you're very much overrating movement speed.
If it's valuable, then it goes without saying that enhancing it might raise balance issues. I usually take the stance of "why buff something that's already pretty good and doesn't really need it?" As I said earlier, buffing the monk's fast movement is overpowered, but not egregiously so.
Overpowered no, but you are making a poor comparison.
Haste is a rounds per level buff. Monk speed bonus is an always on ability.
Monks are +10' faster than a normal person starting at 3rd level, +20' faster at 6th. That is only 10' slower than haste at the same level it would become available and it is on 24/7. Things stacking in 3.0 was what caused problems, PFRPG Has attempted to make it less so.
Haste does a lot more than just that. It's an augment to attack rolls, AC, and Reflex saves as well, not to mention that extra full-BAB attack. Plus, it applies to a small platoon's worth of people with a single casting. Monk's only get the speed boost and they need a lot of experience to make it as good as a single 3rd level spell. Also, their speed boost is lost if they're encumbered or wearing armor, something haste outright ignores. Before level 12, which is where the majority of all Pathfinder games take place, a monk's speed boost just sucks in comparison to a low-tier spell that does a lot more for numerous people with no restrictions at all. Which, when you consider this is an entire class feature for the monk, is kinda depressing.
As far as stacking goes, the reason people bring up the type of the monk speed bonus is, Sqwonk noted, it's enhancement-typed and therefore stacks with nothing else in the game, with VERY rare exceptions. While stacking bonuses to d20 rolls and damage can be an issue (I actually agree heartily with this), it's hard to see how a man running a little faster from both his mystical brawler training and his special magic boots is something to even register on the map of "Must be careful of this combination because balance".
I understand what haste does... It still doesn't mean it is a "good" comparison. It is a horrible one.
There used to be a general guideline in 3.5 that any amount of movement past a set number was "magical" (usually referenced in flight speed IIRC). Apparently Paizo has decided that scaling movement rates that provide substantial bonuses are somewhat magical as well in this case.
I understand what haste does... It still doesn't mean it is a "good" comparison. It is a horrible one.
There used to be a general guideline in 3.5 that any amount of movement past a set number was "magical" (usually referenced in flight speed IIRC). Apparently Paizo has decided that scaling movement rates that provide substantial bonuses are somewhat magical as well in this case.
If that's the case, they've ignored (and created) content which defies this logic, both in other parts of the game and in the monk class itself. Fast Movement is extraordinary class feature, yet it has the exact same bonus type as what spells and magic items provide. For some reason, non-magical and magical speed bonuses aren't allowed to stack together here. They do just fine with many other speed bonuses that aren't inherently linked to magic, though, like the barbarian's class ability, the Fleet feat, and the Impossible Speed mythic ability. These are all type-less speed boosts and those last two can stack/scale to higher levels. Hell, the mythic one actually relies on access to an explicitly supernatural power source to work. Which I guess makes it strangely in-line with the ki pool speed boost feature, also a type-less bonus despite also relying on a supernatural power source to work. Even the "upgraded" ki power version of this in the unchained monk, Sudden Speed, is this way. Swapping the bonus type / type-less situation between the base class feature and the ki pool / ki power feature makes a lot more mechanical and thematic sense.
If that's the case, they've ignored (and created) content which defies this logic, both in other parts of the game and in the monk class itself. Fast Movement is extraordinary class feature, yet it has the exact same bonus type as what spells and magic items provide. For some reason, non-magical and magical speed bonuses aren't allowed to stack together here. They do just fine with many other speed bonuses that aren't inherently linked to magic, though, like the barbarian's class ability, the Fleet feat, and the Impossible Speed mythic ability. These are all type-less speed boosts and those last two can stack/scale to higher levels. Hell, the mythic one actually relies on access to an explicitly supernatural power source to work. Which I guess makes it strangely in-line with the ki pool speed boost feature, also a type-less bonus despite also relying on a supernatural power source to work. Even the "upgraded" ki power version of this in the unchained monk, Sudden Speed, is this way. Swapping the bonus type / type-less situation between the base class feature and the ki pool / ki power feature makes a lot more mechanical and thematic sense.I understand what haste does... It still doesn't mean it is a "good" comparison. It is a horrible one.
There used to be a general guideline in 3.5 that any amount of movement past a set number was "magical" (usually referenced in flight speed IIRC). Apparently Paizo has decided that scaling movement rates that provide substantial bonuses are somewhat magical as well in this case.
And besides you believe one is more logical of better than the other, what is your point?
There are tons of conflicting and illogical rules, for various reasons from grandfathered 3.5 rules to it is just meant to be that way.
That doesn't change what the rules are or how the game plays for each tiny interaction that we don't like.
If you don't like it houserule it. It isn't the first time, and definitely won't be the last time, there is a rule people don't like. Sometimes rules conflict with logic, sometimes they just rub us the wrong way, sometimes they get changed, sometimes they aren't worth changing. The vast majority of the time they do what the designers wanted them to do. As my group is playing their game, that is good enough for me. The important part is it is enjoyable, not that it makes sense 100% of the time for 100% of the people playing it.
If you don't like it houserule it.
Literally what this thread was made for, I think a lot of people would appreciate it if you stopped being so dismissive
As for the OP, no there wouldn't be balance issues. The Monk would be stronger than he is now, but that's because he'd have a niche of moving around the battlefield faster than anyone else. It's a pretty small bonus next to what the Barbarian and Fighter (get the Weapon Master's Handbook) have in their pocket.