Size categories in Combat Maneuvers are right?

[EleiRah]

Hello. Talking with one of my players he complains about how bad is grapple maneuver in PF compared with 3.5. Is right than big creatures always have bonuses over smaller? Why being small is good for AC but bad for CMD? A fly is difficult to hit with a mace and to catch in the same way, isnt it?

Thx all for answers :)

[Chess Pwn]

Yes it is correct that size helps AC but hurts CMD.

[CampinCarl9127]

The fly is very hard to hit. But once it's grabbed, it's really easy to grapple (holding it in your hand is basically effortless).

I once threw a colossal bleeding horror platypus (don't ask) at the party. The huge to-hit penalty made it miss most of its attacks on the paladin, but then it switch to the awesome blow combat maneuver, so I got to turn the size from a to-hit penalty to a CMB bonus, smacking the paladin right off the boat.

[Dave Justus]

Your player apparently has forgotten the 3.5 rules. Size was an even bigger deal for grappling than it is in Pathfinder.

What has happened though is that more or less the touch attack to start a grapple from 3.5 has been done away with entirely leaving just the holding on wrestling portion. So one chance that a small quick creature had to avoid a grapple is gone, although it would take a very impressive touch AC for that to be much of a factor.

[EleiRah]

CampinCarl9127 wrote:

The fly is very hard to hit. But once it's grabbed, it's really easy to grapple (holding it in your hand is basically effortless).

Thats what he say, but grapple maneuver applies bonuses since the begginning so...

Dave Justus wrote:

Your player apparently has forgotten the 3.5 rules. Size was an even bigger deal for grappling than it is in Pathfinder.

What has happened though is that more or less the touch attack to start a grapple from 3.5 has been done away with entirely leaving just the holding on wrestling portion. So one chance that a small quick creature had to avoid a grapple is gone, although it would take a very impressive touch AC for that to be much of a factor.

Well, lets see how I understand (I could be wrong I guess)

Comparing a touch attack vs a grapple maneuver let us with that:

Epic battle:

Man vs a fly (just example).

Touch attack man vs fly:
Man: Bab+str bonus+other bonusses
Fly: 10+Dex bonus+dodge bonus+size bonus (wich is a +8)+ other bonusses.

Its difficult to touch a fly

Grapple maneuver:
Man: Bab(same)+Str bonus(same)+special size modifier (medium is +0)+other bonusses(same)
Fly: 10+bab(thats suppose to be the advantage)+ str bonus (generally negative)+dex bonus(same)+special size modifiers(-8 in this case)+other bonusses (same)

Now its very easy to touch a fly... because reasons

So +8 for attack the fly is now a -8 to try to grapple it. I dont understand that. Bab are supposed to equilibrate? In the rest of combat maneuvers the size penalizatión works fine, but in grapple seems to be very unclear. Trying to cath a fly is not very different to try to smash it IMO.

Thx to answer me, that was my first post and community is awesome :)

[Dave Justus]

EleiRah wrote:

So +8 for attack the fly is now a -8 to try to grapple it. I dont understand that. Bab are supposed to equilibrate? In the rest of combat maneuvers the size penalizatión works fine, but in grapple seems to be very unclear. Trying to cath a fly is not very different to try to smash it IMO.

Thx to answer me, that was my first post and community is awesome :)

In 3.5 the sequence was something like Make Touch Attack -> Grapple Checks to hold/damage/etc.

Pathfinder it is Grapple Checks to hold/damage/etc.

In both systems being bigger than your foe makes it easier to wrestle him. i.e. if you are bigger than average you get a bonus to grapple checks and if you are smaller you take a penalty. The actual numbers were more severe in 3.5 (I recall large being +4 instead of Pathfinder's +1 for example)

Pathfinder does skip the step of having to make a touch attack before starting the whole wrestling thing. That does give the grabber a slight advantage over 3.5, but it is a pretty small one since it was rare for the touch attack to miss.

Hopefully that helps you understand.

[Gwen Smith]

Small size is only a -1 to your CMB and CMD, so it's really not that big a penalty for player characters. Tiny and diminutive monsters, however, it does get worse.

On the flip side, grapple has no size category restrictions, so that tiny imp can grapple the dragon if he can somehow get a hold of it. (My halfling tetori monk grapples large creatures all the time--her record so far is a gargantuan creature...)