Having been consistently disappointed with the cleric archetypes available (Herald Caller aside :)) ), I thought I would have a go at my own. My personal preference would be a new D6 1/2 BAB class but Paizo seems bizarrely reluctant to do one (despite the obvious demand for it!)
Here we go.... tell us what you think....
Some clerics become completely obsessed about the specialised powers and spells that are offered by their deity, to the extent that they almost completely forgo other parts of their religious training. Other members of the clergy can see them as zealots, unbalanced and lacking in perspective, but they see themselves as bastions of purity and are granted magical access
unavailable to their kin.
Weapon and armour proficiency
The Domain Savant is only proficient with the dagger, club and quarterstaff, forgoing even their deity’s favoured weapon. Due to his dedication to divine lore, he is only proficient with light armour and cannot gain medium armour or shield proficiency. This replaces the cleric's weapon and armour proficiencies.
Obsessive student
The Domain Savant is talented at utilising magical items to maximise their potential in the name of their deity. He receives Utilise Magic Device as a bonus class skill. Due to their studious nature, any UMD checks utilise the players Intelligence modifier not their Charisma as would normally be the case. Also they receive a bonus feat at 5th and 10th level - this may be any item creation, Spell Focus, Spell Penetration or Metamagic feat. Finally, they find views and opinions contrary to their own difficult to understand and as such lose Diplomacy as a class skill and receive a -5 penalty to any checks made against it. This alters the cleric's class skills.
Spontaneous casting
Due to the focussed nature of their calling, the Domain Savant loses the ability to spontaneously cast cure (or inflict spells). This alters the cleric's class skills.
Channeling
The Domain Savant is an obsessive and as such completely loses the ability to channel positive or negative energy. This alters the cleric’s channel ability.
Divine Awakening
Unlike a normal cleric who may choose 2 domains from their deity’s list and gains the powers and domain spells from both, the Domain Savant has a wider variety of options gifted to them in reward for their piety and sacrifice. Firstly, they receive 2 domain spell slots per level instead of just 1. Secondly, every day from their deity’s list of domains/subdomains, they may select either the powers or the spells from 4 of their available domains/subdomains, or any combination of the two. Their choice is determined every day when they prepare their spells.
For example, a Domain Savant of Pharasma could take just the powers from the Death, Healing, Knowledge (Memory) and Water (Flowing) domains, just the domain spells from Death (Psychopomp), Knowledge (Thought), Repose and Water domains, or alternatively the powers from the Healing (Resurrection) and Knowledge domains as well as the spells from the Water (Ice) and Repose (Psychopomp) domains. This alters the cleric’s normal domain ability.
I'm on board with the concept, but have the following concerns:
OBSESSIVE STUDENT
I don't think that changing the ability score associated with UMD is neccessary. It is already a great skill, and doesn't need a boost. I like the bonus feats though. Why don't they happen at 15th and 20th level? Get rid of the -5 Diplomacy. Lack of ability to negotiate with people should be a role-playing choice, not a penalty for being able to use magic items.
SPONTANEOUS CASTING
This class feature exists solely to allow the cleric to choose spells that don't include the word cure. You're hurting the class.
CHANNEL ENERGY
Same as above. At least substitute it with Lay on Hands or something.
DIVINE AWAKENING
Getting extra spell slots is cool, but you're not bloody likely to find two good lists of domain spells in any deity's portfolio. They all have a few good spells, but they have a lot of bad spells too. Similarly, the little domain powers are a nice touch that PF introduced, but they aren't really that powerful. Thus, this ability is not as good as it sounds. These two perks are outweighed by the loss of other class features. The domain selection process is too confusing to follow. Your example helps, but you still need to clarify the part preceding it.
As written, this cleric is giving up more than he gains.
Cheers for the feedback, much appreciated!! :)
OBSESSIVE STUDENT
I don't think that changing the ability score associated with UMD is neccessary. It is already a great skill, and doesn't need a boost. I like the bonus feats though. Why don't they happen at 15th and 20th level? Get rid of the -5 Diplomacy. Lack of ability to negotiate with people should be a role-playing choice, not a penalty for being able to use magic items.
I wanted to take the archetype focus completely away from CHA and more into the studious side of things as well as making the cleric less MAD. The nature of the archetype lends itself to investing in INT and keeping UMD as a CHA based skill will still mean investment in all 3 mental stats. I was initially thinking about 4+ skill points per level....
The Diplomacy penalty was part flavour (I see the archetype as being a bit unhinged and OCD!) and part a balancing aspect. I wanted the bonus feats relatively early as lets be honest v.few campaigns get to 15th-20th
SPONTANEOUS CASTING
This class feature exists solely to allow the cleric to choose spells that don't include the word cure. You're hurting the class.
Again I wanted to take the archetype away from the usual stuff, take away the investment in spontaneous cures and spend it else where! Maybe a x day ability to spontaneously cast a domain spell?
CHANNEL ENERGY
Same as above. At least substitute it with Lay on Hands or something.
I really dont like Channel Energy.....a waste of a class feature IMO and very poor scaling. I would genuinely rather not have it and have something else.
DIVINE AWAKENING
Getting extra spell slots is cool, but you're not bloody likely to find two good lists of domain spells in any deity's portfolio. They all have a few good spells, but they have a lot of bad spells too. Similarly, the little domain powers are a nice touch that PF introduced, but they aren't really that powerful. Thus, this ability is not as good as it sounds. These two perks are outweighed by the loss of other class features. The domain selection process is too confusing to follow. Your example helps, but you still need to clarify the part preceding it.As written, this cleric is giving up more than he gains.
OK..... how about this for being clearer and with a bit more ooomph!?
Every day whilst preparing spells, the Domain Savant may pick any 4 of his deities domains/subdomains and choose either the domain spell list or the domain abilities from each one of them. In addition at 6th level they may pick 1 spell of a level they can cast from any domain list. This spell can only be cast from the cleric's domain slots. At 12th level this ability increases to 2 spells per day.
Divine Awakening is way too complicated. If you need to give a paragraph-long example in order to show how an ability works, then that should be a sign you need to go back to the drawing board. You could simplify it by allowing the cleric to retrain their domains when they prepare spells.
I agree with Ciaren that you greatly overvalued Divine Awakening. Domain powers are fairly weak and limited. Domain spells are a mixed bag.I like the idea of giving the cleric more flexibility with using them, but you'd have to do something pretty broken to make it worth giving up iconic abilities like channel energy and spontaneous casting of cure/inflict spells.
I really don't like Obsessive Student at all. From a design perspective, taking a -5 penalty is a really sloppy downside to what should be a simple class skill swap. Get rid of the bonus feats, the penalty, and using UMD with Intelligence. Just trade Diplomacy in exchange for Use Magic Device (not Utilitze Magic Device).
I feel like the whole archetype needs to go back to the drawing board. You've made what should be a simple idea overly sloppy and complicated.
You can't gain armor proficiency past light? That is awfully weird considering they should be able to take levels in another class and gain it that way. Even a Commoner could do that, and they're obsessed with not being a PC's tragic plot hook.
What's really strange is that a level of fighter would allows a Domain Savant to wear Heavy Armor with proficiency, because while they cannot gain Medium Armor proficiency, that's can, RAW, gain Heavy. Probably Tower Shields too.
-5 to Diplomacy isn't a design feature if the result is that he just lets others do the talking. It's not the same as giving a wizard -5 to Spellcraft.
OK I've tweaked and hopefully simplified things a bit. I get that Divine Awakening was maybe a bit wordy but then lets be honest Domain Mastery and Bonded Holy Symbol (Ecclesitheurge) take up a huge chunk of space for what they actually deliver... so there is precedent ...albeit a flawed one!!
I do want the archetype to feel quite different as I do think one of the huge problems with the current cleric class is it blandness, lack of options and spellcasting ooomph! So yes there are aspects that could be simpler but then I want the archetype to gain a real sense of identity and flavour. And as any good chef will tell you flavour requires ingredients!!
As well I feel there is a gaping hole in the divine casting set up for a D6 class that I am trying to edge towards. I do understand there are issues with domain spells vs domain powers but there are domains/subdomains where actually you would be far better off with the powers because almost all of the spells are on the cleric class list anyway!
Weapon and armour proficiency
The Domain Savant is only proficient with the dagger, club and quarterstaff, forgoing even their deity’s favoured weapon. Due to his dedication to divine lore, he is only proficient with light armour and does not gain any shield proficiency. Furthermore, any class with levels of Domain Savant cannot progress further levels with the archetype if additional armour proficiency is acquired. This replaces the cleric's weapon and armour proficiencies.
Focussed student
The Domain Savant is talented at utilising magical items to maximise their potential in the name of their deity. However, due to his obsessive nature, he finds dealing with opinions and views contrary to his own difficult. He exchanges Utilise Magic Device for Diplomacy as a class skill. Due to their studious ways, any UMD checks utilise the players Intelligence modifier not their Charisma as would normally be the case. Also they receive a bonus feat at 5th and 10th level - this may be any item creation, Spell Focus, Spell Penetration or Metamagic feat.
Spontaneous casting
Due to the focussed nature of their calling, the Domain Savant loses the ability to spontaneously cast cure (or inflict spells). This alters the cleric's class skills.
Channeling
The Domain Savant is an obsessive and as such completely loses the ability to channel positive or negative energy. This alters the cleric’s channel ability.
Divine Awakening
Unlike a normal cleric who chooses 2 domains from their deity’s list and gains the powers and domain spells from both, the Domain Savant has a wider variety of options gifted to them in reward for their piety and sacrifice. Firstly, they receive 2 domain spell slots per level instead of just 1. Secondly, every day whilst preparing spells, the Domain Savant may pick any 4 of his deity’s domains/subdomains and choose either the domain spell list or the domain abilities from each one of them. Thirdly, at 6th level they may pick 1 spell of a level they can cast from any domain list; at 12th level this ability increases to 2 spells per day. These spells can only be cast from the cleric's domain slots. Finally at 15th level, the Domain Savant may pick 1 8th level ability from any domain/subdomain and use it appropriate to his caster level.
Inability to learn proficiency with medium or heavy armor is odd. Wizards are also very dedicated in their studies, yet they can gain armor proficiencies. It might be more elegant to say that cleric spells are treated as arcane for the purpose of arcane spell failure.
Not sure why UMD fits the theme. If they are so dedicated, shouldn't they be content with the powers granted by their deity?
I agree with Ciaran Barnes that taking away spontaneous casting is a bad choice. At least give them some ability to spontaneously cast domain spells instead.
By the way, when writing an archetype, if you take abilities A and B away to compensate for ability C, you can simply write under ability C: "This ability replaces [ability A] and [ability B]." That makes it easier to understand which trade-off the player gets when choosing that archetype.
I agree with the others that Divine Awakening is not very intuitive.
I think you have to take into account the cleric's spell list. If the domain savant can't benefit from all those nice combat buffs, he is stuck with summoning and healing/condition removal. Domain spells might offer additional options, but they are very limited. In my opinion, the best solution for a more caster-oriented cleric would be to expand domains (a domain specialization). Unfortunately, there is no quick and easy solution for that--you'd have to write up abilities for all 32 domains, and that is a lot of work if you are serious about it.
Inability to learn proficiency with medium or heavy armor is odd. Wizards are also very dedicated in their studies, yet they can gain armor proficiencies. It might be more elegant to say that cleric spells are treated as arcane for the purpose of arcane spell failure.
Not really... the Ecclesitheurge is completely banned from EVER going near armour or shields! But OK I've had an idea for a tweak.
Not sure why UMD fits the theme. If they are so dedicated, shouldn't they be content with the powers granted by their deity?
I was trying to give it a more "caster" type feel with an emphasis of being more adept with magical items due to their studious ways
I agree with Ciaran Barnes that taking away spontaneous casting is a bad choice. At least give them some ability to spontaneously cast domain spells instead.
Agreed - will tweak
By the way, when writing an archetype, if you take abilities A and B away to compensate for ability C, you can simply write under ability C: "This ability replaces [ability A] and [ability B]." That makes it easier to understand which trade-off the player gets when choosing that archetype.
I know what you mean but the reason I dont like it is that often the trade off isnt something quantifiable.... more like a combination of bits of things
I agree with the others that Divine Awakening is not very intuitive.
I dont see what the problem is in terms of understanding - it seems perfectly clear?! But OK will tweak again!
Tweaked it some more! :)
Weapon and armour proficiency
The Domain Savant is only proficient with the dagger, club and quarterstaff, forgoing even their deity’s favoured weapon. Due to his dedication to divine lore, he is not proficient with any armour or shields and may not cast divine spells or utilise any special abilities whilst wearing armour or using a shield. This replaces the cleric's weapon and armour proficiencies.
Whispers from above
At 5th level, the Domain Savant receives brief warning messages of impending danger from their deity, allowing them to avoid harm by the narrowest of margins. They receive an insight bonus to their AC equal to their Wisdom modifier.
Focussed student
Due to their studious ways, they receive scribe scroll at first level as a bonus feat and receive additional bonus feats at 8th and 14th level - these may be any item creation, Spell Focus, Spell Penetration or Metamagic feats.
Spontaneous casting
Due to the focussed nature of their calling, the Domain Savant loses the ability to spontaneously cast cure (or inflict spells). However, they gain a limited ability to spontaneously cast domain spells. A Domain Savant starts may perform this once per day at first level, twice at 4th and three times at 10th. This alters the cleric's class skills.
Channeling
The Domain Savant is an obsessive and as such completely loses the ability to channel positive or negative energy. This alters the cleric’s channel ability.
Divine Awakening
Unlike a normal cleric who chooses 2 domains from their deity’s list and gains the powers and domain spells from both, the Domain Savant has a wider variety of options gifted to them in reward for their piety and sacrifice. Firstly, they receive 2 domain spell slots per level instead of just 1. Secondly, when they are preparing their spells, they may select any domain or subdomain spell available from their deity to use in their domain spell slots - all of their deity’s domain spells are classed as being part of their class spell list. They may also at the appropriate level, pick 1 lesser domain power and one higher domain power from any available to them. Finally, at 5th level and every 3 levels after that, a Domain Savant may pick 1 spell from any domain and is able to prepare it in an appropriate domain spell slot.
Whispers from above is very powerful. It's WIS-based bonus to AC that (probably?) stacks with the Monk bonus to AC, works in any armor (though effectively only light armor), and is your primary stat.
Remember he cant use physical armour or shields of any sort ever!
Even if you are completely maxed out on WIS, its only worth 12 AC over 20 levels. For most of your time it will be equivalent to magically enhanced light armour. And it only kicks in at 5th.
Whispers from above is very powerful. It's WIS-based bonus to AC that (probably?) stacks with the Monk bonus to AC, works in any armor (though effectively only light armor), and is your primary stat.
Remember he cant use physical armour or shields of any sort ever!
Even if you are completely maxed out on WIS, its only worth 12 AC over 20 levels. For most of your time it will be equivalent to magically enhanced light armour. And it only kicks in at 5th.
Getting up to 12 AC for free is a big deal. It's actually better than having light armor because it doesn't have armor check penalties, applies to touch attacks, and doesn't cost you money.
I have some proposals.
Weapon and Armour proficiency-Rewrite this to simply say that Divine Spells act as Arcane spells in relation to arcane armor failure. This would mean that at best you could use Ceremonial robes, which I think is fair. I think they should still get the favored weapon, though. Even if they are non Martial
Obsessive student-If you're going to have UMD be tied to intelligence and you're going to remove channeling, I would recommend adding in an ability that is tied to INT. Perhaps grant the class all knowledge skills, or the ability to use INT to add spells to your class list ala the Lore Shaman ability.
Divine Awakening-I have an idea here. Right now this is confusingly written, so how about simplifiy it a bit and expand it? Right now every cleric archetype REDUCES the amount of domains you get, how about for this one, you exchange channeling for MORE domains. You can only get 1 or 2 extra domain slots, but you can get the abilities from one extra domain per 4 levels or so. Throw in a caveat that allows you get more domains if your diety doesn't have enough domains.
Lastly, this class, being so focused on their diety, should have some sort of bonus in regards to the Deific/Demonic/Celestial obediences spells, like getting them as a bonus feat or granting the special abilities a few levels earlier.
I have some proposals.
Weapon and Armour proficiency-Rewrite this to simply say that Divine Spells act as Arcane spells in relation to arcane armor failure. This would mean that at best you could use Ceremonial robes, which I think is fair. I think they should still get the favored weapon, though. Even if they are non Martial
Obsessive student-If you're going to have UMD be tied to intelligence and you're going to remove channeling, I would recommend adding in an ability that is tied to INT. Perhaps grant the class all knowledge skills, or the ability to use INT to add spells to your class list ala the Lore Shaman ability.
Divine Awakening-I have an idea here. Right now this is confusingly written, so how about simplifiy it a bit and expand it? Right now every cleric archetype REDUCES the amount of domains you get, how about for this one, you exchange channeling for MORE domains. You can only get 1 or 2 extra domain slots, but you can get the abilities from one extra domain per 4 levels or so. Throw in a caveat that allows you get more domains if your diety doesn't have enough domains.
Lastly, this class, being so focused on their deity, should have some sort of bonus in regards to the Deific/Demonic/Celestial obediences spells, like getting them as a bonus feat or granting the special abilities a few levels earlier.
I have some proposals.
Weapon and Armour proficiency-Rewrite this to simply say that Divine Spells act as Arcane spells in relation to arcane armor failure. This would mean that at best you could use Ceremonial robes, which I think is fair. I think they should still get the favored weapon, though. Even if they are non Martial
Obsessive student-If you're going to have UMD be tied to intelligence and you're going to remove channeling, I would recommend adding in an ability that is tied to INT. Perhaps grant the class all knowledge skills, or the ability to use INT to add spells to your class list ala the Lore Shaman ability.
Divine Awakening-I have an idea here. Right now this is confusingly written, so how about simplifiy it a bit and expand it? Right now every cleric archetype REDUCES the amount of domains you get, how about for this one, you exchange channeling for MORE domains. You can only get 1 or 2 extra domain slots, but you can get the abilities from one extra domain per 4 levels or so. Throw in a caveat that allows you get more domains if your diety doesn't have enough domains.
Lastly, this class, being so focused on their diety, should have some sort of bonus in regards to the Deific/Demonic/Celestial obediences spells, like getting them as a bonus feat or granting the special abilities a few levels earlier.
Have you read the latest tweaking? I've simplified things a lot.... in fact I fail to see how I could make it any simpler (especially regarding Divine Awakening!!!)
And remember... I am trying to give the cleric a genuinely different and playable archetype..... something that is noticeably different and filled with joyous divine flavour!!
..... I remember the nonsense with the Ecclesitheurge... the reason it missed out initially on Blessing of the Faithful?.... WORD COUNT... the irony being that I wish they hadnt come up with the idea in the first place!
Cheers for the feedback though :)
Not really... the Ecclesitheurge is completely banned from EVER going near armour or shields! But OK I've had an idea for a tweak.
I figured out what was bugging me about this. Ecclesitheurge are not banned from using armor, or even becoming proficient through feats or multiclassing. Same as druids and metal armor.
Now, I like the latest version a bit more. Very nice.