Starting at 2nd level, a brawler can make a brawler's flurry as a full-attack action. When doing so, a brawler has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when attacking with any combination of unarmed strikes, weapons from the close fighter weapon group, or weapons with the "monk" special feature. She does not need to use two different weapons to use this ability.
My question emphasizes on the last sentence really. A player at our table is interested in the Shield Champion archetype, and was curious to ask if he could use all granted attacks for his shield bash.
Since it states you don't need two different weapons, the point in question is does a brawler using his flurry in this manner suffer the -2/-2 two-weapon fighting penalties, even though he is not actually fighting with two weapons?
If he's using the flurry and getting the extra attacks, he gets the penalties too.
If he's using the flurry and getting the extra attacks, he gets the penalties too.
Common sense tells me that, and that's probably how its going to work at the table. I just can't find the right string of words to say to convince them, with that last sentence being there.
Well, he's still using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when he flurries. The ability grants use of the feat(as the feat), and gives the added ability of not needing two weapons to use Two-Weapon Fighting.
Key thing is that while it's TWF through the ability, it's still TWF as the feat and uses all the language of the feat that doesn't conflict with the ability.
I may re-skin it to be similar to the Unchained Monk's Flurry. Which, you miss out on a 3rd extra attack, but the 2 that are granted are at the top attack bonus. And there's no mess with requiring to use two-weapons or the feats.
Ah yes, thank you Avoron. That might be a driving force they will listen to.
I may re-skin it to be similar to the Unchained Monk's Flurry. Which, you miss out on a 3rd extra attack, but the 2 that are granted are at the top attack bonus. And there's no mess with requiring to use two-weapons or the feats.That's probably a good idea. If it worked like the Unchained Monk's, it would also allow the Shield Champion to use his shield two-handed for 1.5x Str to damage.
I know, right? That might actually be my fav part of Unchained Flurry. It also slightly encourages monks to use 2-handed Monk Weapons.
And, you know, more attacks at the highest bonus.
I may re-skin it to be similar to the Unchained Monk's Flurry. Which, you miss out on a 3rd extra attack, but the 2 that are granted are at the top attack bonus. And there's no mess with requiring to use two-weapons or the feats.
Does it need to?
Itis already a fairly powerful ability due to the parts of TWF it already breaks. It can use a single weapon for all flurry attacks (which means you can get TWF style without the heavy cost of two weapons) and it can be done with a 2 handed weapon (which carries x1.5 power attack on every hit).
That, along with the fact that it can get better damage dice on close weapons, means it is already pretty strong. And lets not forget the fact that brawlers don't have to turtle up like a monk- they can go strength based, and then just grab light armor (or medium mithral armor if they grab armor expert trait) and then just have their scaling AC bonus allow them to getdecent AC. And lets not forget- they can grab weapon expertise- boring, but practical for the many hit style of flurries.
No need to just give more things away for free. They get plenty of small advantages already that add up to good damage.
|
I may re-skin it to be similar to the Unchained Monk's Flurry. Which, you miss out on a 3rd extra attack, but the 2 that are granted are at the top attack bonus. And there's no mess with requiring to use two-weapons or the feats.Does it need to?
Itis already a fairly powerful ability...
I don't know. I don't think I'd consider anything modeled after flurry of misses to be considered a powerful ability.
I don't know. I don't think I'd consider anything modeled after flurry of misses to be considered a powerful ability.I may re-skin it to be similar to the Unchained Monk's Flurry. Which, you miss out on a 3rd extra attack, but the 2 that are granted are at the top attack bonus. And there's no mess with requiring to use two-weapons or the feats.Does it need to?
Itis already a fairly powerful ability...
???
It is fairly consistent with the 3/4 BAB classes (y'know- once they get their attack buff ability like judgment, or inspire courage going- since most of those classes have a 15+5 thing going on, so they are on par with bare bones full BAB). Especially when you can grab both weapon focuses...foci?- Whatever- you can grab feats to cover for TWF penalties.
Is this a build problem with your monks? I mean...brawler hardly suffers from the same general design problems as I mentioned. They don't have to turtle up or spend point buy on a lot of wisdom to get by- they just grab some basic armor, and eventually just do well. So they can go all out on strength.
|
|
I may re-skin it to be similar to the Unchained Monk's Flurry. Which, you miss out on a 3rd extra attack, but the 2 that are granted are at the top attack bonus. And there's no mess with requiring to use two-weapons or the feats.Does it need to?
Itis already a fairly powerful ability due to the parts of TWF it already breaks. It can use a single weapon for all flurry attacks (which means you can get TWF style without the heavy cost of two weapons) and it can be done with a 2 handed weapon (which carries x1.5 power attack on every hit).
That, along with the fact that it can get better damage dice on close weapons, means it is already pretty strong. And lets not forget the fact that brawlers don't have to turtle up like a monk- they can go strength based, and then just grab light armor (or medium mithral armor if they grab armor expert trait) and then just have their scaling AC bonus allow them to getdecent AC. And lets not forget- they can grab weapon expertise- boring, but practical for the many hit style of flurries.
No need to just give more things away for free. They get plenty of small advantages already that add up to good damage.
I don't think that the core monk get the x1.5 with a two handed weapon:
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
Correct. Core flurry of blows is just x1 Strength. Unchained doesn't have that restriction.
|
|
Correct. Core flurry of blows is just x1 Strength. Unchained doesn't have that restriction.
Yes, I just checked that, I was almost sure it was that way.
Note that the Brawler has the same text:
A brawler applies her full Strength modifier to her damage rolls for all attacks made with brawler's flurry, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand weapon or a weapon wielded in both hands.
so he don't benefit from using a 2 handed weapon when flurrying (unless he is using power attack, the text of that feat speak of 2-handed weapon, it don't require the x1.5 multiplier [barring the existence of specific FAQs, I am not an expert on flurry]).
I don't think that the core monk get the x1.5 with a two handed weapon:
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
Well, that is nice. But what does POWER ATTACK say?
You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.
Power attack doesn't care about strength bonus (unless we are talking about natural attacks- but that is its own can of worms, and not a part of manufactured weapons in this discussion). All power attack cares about is how many hands is on the weapon. Flurry explicitly alters how strength bonus works, but says nothing about altering power attack.
This has come up time and again in rules threads, and this has been how its been regarded for years. There are probably some official statements buried somewhere in those threads... but not digging through all that right not (I know some of it is buried DEEP in a 1,200 post thread on armor spikes).
A -2 is a pretty insignificant penalty to pay for making extra two-handed attacks unless a character is bad at hitting things. Even if you normally only hit 50% of the time for X damage (so average .5X/round), flurry means you have a 40% chance to hit with two attacks (so average .8X/round). It's not quite that simple when you factor for things like haste or iterative attacks or a small loss of strength bonus, but the overall point is that it's hard for flurry to be anything but an improvement in power unless a character was pretty lousy to begin with.
So, I have a couple related questions regarding the Brawler's Flurry myself :
- There's no mention that I can see of treating eligible weapons as "light". Does that mean one-handed (and 2-h) weapons end up getting the full -4 to attack ?
Seems ludicrous, but strangely enough I see nothing to contradict that.
- If one were to flurry with a shield, would Shield Master help at all ? It doesn't feel like it, but I might as well check ...
|
|
So, I have a couple related questions regarding the Brawler's Flurry myself :
- There's no mention that I can see of treating eligible weapons as "light". Does that mean one-handed (and 2-h) weapons end up getting the full -4 to attack ?
Seems ludicrous, but strangely enough I see nothing to contradict that.
Interesting question:
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.
My reply would be:
you aren't attacking with your off hand, when using a 2 handed weapon you are using your hands on your main weapon, so there is no off hand weapon.Add that Flurry of blow say: "When doing so, he may make on additional attack, taking a -2 penalty on all of his attack rolls, as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat.", so it give a fixed penalty, regardless of the weapons used. I think it would stay -2 even if you were using 2 one handed monk weapons (if any exist).