Has anyone engaged in the Rage of Demons storyline in any of its formats? What are your thoughts on it?
I've started the Archmage novel and have been reading Out of the Abyss with plans on starting the campaign soon. I'm having a rough time with the novel, but that's been the case for almost all D&D based novels (especially R.A. Salvatore; his writing style just does not mesh with me). Conversely, I am thoroughly impressed with Out of the Abyss so far. I've read about half of it.
The campaign is very fluid; barely any railroad, and where it does exist it's so completely unnoticeable that it's non-existent from the players side. The setting is full of flavor, and mixes the various underdark denizens both good and bad, as well as the demons, so well that the whole campaign feels like a fully functioning and dynamic ecosystem with all the sentient politics you'd expect from multiple cultures living near each other and competing for resources.
Needless to say, I'm impressed.
What are your thoughts?
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I haven't read the novels at all, but checked out Out of the Abyss.
It honestly lost me quite early, with the other prisoners. Much of the sandbox rests on them and... I didn't like or want to run any of them. So the whole thing sort of unraveled.
My other issue was just the layout. I had a lot of trouble finding basic information about the different areas in the sandbox, to the extent that I would have just made everything up on the fly instead.
That said, there's definitely the core of a good adventure in there, so I'm glad you did better finding it than I did :)
Cheers!
Landon
You know, I can see that. It's certainly not like the adventure layouts of pathfinder. The entire feel of it reminds me of the sandbox adventures of 1e, and I loved those, so I think that's why I love this one so much. But after playing pathfinder for so long, there is a style I've gotten used to and this ain't it. So I can definitely see a dislike for the layout. It did take me a bit to get used to this one, and once I did the rest fell into place.
A lot of the campaign is also simply primed for me to like it, despite the layout. Demons? Check (I'm a huge planescape fan). Underdark? Yup. Kou-toa, drow, deep dwarves and gnomes, illithid, fungus people! Oh heck yes. And the designers said they also wanted to add influences from HP Lovecraft and Alice in Wonderland, and I can definitely see both. It's everyone I already love in various setting all tied into one campaign. So I was already biased towards the positive.
Here's the general layout:
Chapter 1: adventure starts. No background, no player info, just begin the adventure. It's up to the GM and the players to work out how they got there. But ready? Go. Here's a bunch of NPC's to help you out in the underdark. However, the additional background options for players located in Appendix A can lessen the need for the NPCs. Especially the background option that lets you know about the primary routes and locales of the underdark.
Chapter 2: How to run the various travel routes in the underdark. Provides randomized obsticles, both monsters and location obsticles, so the players can feel like each path they take is unique while still having the ability to see repeat encounters (but not identical encounters) as they travel. Also sets up a chase mechanic that's different from the DMG. Also provides some mini-dungeons that you can place throughout the entire campaign.
Chapters 3-6: Details each primary location the players may visit, as well as sub-adventures within each underdark city.
And that's as far as I've read in the campaign so far.
I did skip ahead and read the appendices as well. A is player options. B is new monsters. C is new magic items. And D is the demons themselves. (I may have B and C backwards).
The only down side is that when something is referenced in the book, they don't say which page to find the information. Sometimes they'll say, See Section H (referring to that section within the same chapter) or it'll say See Chapter 3, but they never give page specifics. Especially for monsters located in another book. But all in all, it doesn't really bother me. Just something I've noticed.
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A lot of the campaign is also simply primed for me to like it, despite the layout. Demons? Check (I'm a huge planescape fan). Underdark? Yup. Kou-toa, drow, deep dwarves and gnomes, illithid, fungus people! Oh heck yes. And the designers said they also wanted to add influences from HP Lovecraft and Alice in Wonderland, and I can definitely see both. It's everyone I already love in various setting all tied into one campaign. So I was already biased towards the positive.
Yeah, I'm in a more mixed boat. I love demons, the Underdark, and Lovecraft... but Alice in Wonderland isn't really my cup of tea.
I think a little zaniness actually could do great things for an Underdark adventure for the exact reasons they probably included it: preventing the adventure from becoming a horrifying drag. Nonstop Lovecraft can get to be a bit much, even for us fans.
But, instead of a rogue's gallery that was nonstop Lovecraft, I feel like we got one that was nonstop Wonderland. A few of those characters in a larger group with few serious and a few dark characters would have been great, allowing groups to choose their tone.
The only down side is that when something is referenced in the book, they don't say which page to find the information. Sometimes they'll say, See Section H (referring to that section within the same chapter) or it'll say See Chapter 3, but they never give page specifics. Especially for monsters located in another book. But all in all, it doesn't really bother me. Just something I've noticed.
That's a good point. I hadn't actually noticed that, although I'm sure it contributed to my inability to find anything quickly.
Cheers!
Landon
But, instead of a rogue's gallery that was nonstop Lovecraft, I feel like we got one that was nonstop Wonderland. A few of those characters in a larger group with few serious and a few dark characters would have been great, allowing groups to choose their tone.
That's a really good idea! I'm going to incorporate that and change up some of the NPCs.
You know, I can see that. It's certainly not like the adventure layouts of pathfinder. The entire feel of it reminds me of the sandbox adventures of 1e, and I loved those, so I think that's why I love this one so much. But after playing pathfinder for so long, there is a style I've gotten used to and this ain't it. So I can definitely see a dislike for the layout. It did take me a bit to get used to this one, and once I did the rest fell into place.What 1e sandbox adventures are you thinking of? Nothing really comes to mind for me, though people's understanding of sandbox varies widely.
My interpretation of sandbox is that as a player, you can go where you want to go and you aren't forced down a specific path for the storyline. Maybe my definition is wrong (and if it is, I welcome corrections!), but that's what I was thinking when I wrote my initial post.
As for 1e, Keep on the Borderlands immediately comes to mind. As well as Dwellers of the Forbidden City. Thinking about it more, I believe I'm more talking about modules that describe locations that the players explore rather than a specific storyline that one follows, and this campaign brings that in spades. Additionally, with both those 1e modules and Out of the Abyss, you could play them again and again with the same group and have nearly a completely different experience every time. There are only a few key parts in the game that are static. So again, maybe I'm wrong with my use of sandbox.
How wide open is this and how do they handle reaching areas at different levels? Random encounters on the different travel routes are one thing, but how about visiting the locations in chapters 3-6 and trying to do the sub-adventures in different orders?
You can go to chapters 3-6 in any order you like. Once you finish chapter 1, the NPCs provide information (or a PC may know from the alternate background options in Apprndix A) on the various cities, and the PCs then choose which direction to go. Once you pick a path to a locale...
But, once you reach a locale, you can then go to various other locales within the underdark. You can literally pick any which one you want to go and pick any order you want to play them in. There are different ways to get to different locations. You may choose to go to Darklake first and then cross the lake itself to get to another city. You may discover an underground river and ride the waters to the lake to get to where you want to go. You could hit up the deep gnomes first, or visit the deep dwarves (sorry, the book isn't in front of me, so I don't remember how to spell the D&D names; and I'm on break at work so I can't spent too much time getting everything correct or I'll run out of time). You may find alternate paths or previously unexplored caverns or hit up one of the sub-dungeons that may grant a secret path to another city. It's all fluid, with the GM adding in parts and opportunities and the players choosing their own paths. This campaign has the same feel as the rest of 5e - where the game is all about open communication between the GM and the players and actively encourages a communicative group (vs a GM vs player mentality that we on the Paizo boards actively doscourage).
This campaign does not provide much information in terms of what level you should be by what point, except...
In addition, the extra sub-dungeons provided in chapter 2 can be placed anywhere within the underdark that you as a GM decide, mostly to help your PCs gain more experience to level up if you think things are too challenging for them.
With all of that combined with the random cave/path design from one locale to another, it creates a different experience each time you go.
It's still something I'm looking into, and I'll post an update when I figure it out, but I had the same question about what level should you be when you hit certain areas.
This edition has seriously changed the focus of encounters from a defeat-the-bad-guys-though-combat to a focus of solve-problems. If solving problems means combat, then ok. But sometimes you have to think outside the box. Yeah, you can't kill that demon in straight up combat, but you may be able to goad the demon into fighting this other demon instead, or trap it, or simply run from it and hide as it continues to run down that cavern thinking you went that way.
But for direct confrontation, I'll give it a look when I get off work and let you know what I see. I've been mostly just skimming through trying to get an over all gist, and giving a strong focus on chapters 1 and 2 since that is what I'll use the most when the campaign starts.
Yeah, I guess those old modules are sort of sandbox - even the original Drow modules might qualify.
I think they, or at least the Keep since that's the one I remember best, have the same problem I'm talking about:
I get the campaign doesn't tell you what level you should be by what point, but it still has to matter, right? Like trying the upper end of the Caves in the Keep at 1st level, the challenges in the various locations you can do in any order can't be designed for both level 3 & level 7, can they? You're either going to get slaughtered or walk over the threats, depending what you hit when.In a homebrew sandbox, you adjust for that on the fly, giving them cues so they can figure out what's too tough or not worth their time. You just don't actually develop the possibilities they don't pursue.
So it looks like each of the locations you can visit in the first half of the book are about equal in difficulty, and the players will be encountering creatures that can easily slaughter them if they're stupid.
They also encounter many creatures they can beat. There's also several social scenarios in each of the locales, as well as intrigue, investigation, making deals, and of course combat and dungeons. They'll be experiencing a range of challenges that's anywhere from easy to level appropriate to impossible to beat by combat.
But then again, this is true no matter where you go. It's really implausible that no matter when you adventure, you only enounter things that are level appropriate. Finding things that you can easily dispatch as well as things you have to hide from or run from makes the game more immersive.
You really can't go in to this adventure thinking you'll just combat your way out of every situation. And that's another reason I like 5e, it's not just a series of combats that's always somehow level appropriate.
Thing will get a bit easier as they level up, but remember, 5e doesn't have much change between levels. Most of your ACs and DCs are still going to be in the teen range. Your proficiency bonus maxes out at +6 by level 20, and all your stats max out at 20. The only real difference in levels is HP and maybe a new ability or two. So I'm really not expecting to see a ton of variation in challenge ratings between locales. Just different challenges to overcome.
I really liked this adventure, although like the OP it hit a lot of my preferences theme-wise, so the chances were good I'd come away positive about it.
I'm also a big fan of sandbox-y APs. I think the G1-3 D1-3 Q1 series is a pretty good analog to this one - a whole bunch of site-based adventures of ever increasing danger. The difficulty of getting to the more difficult adventure locales is the extent of the railroad.
My main complaint is also the NPCs. I like the inclusion of NPCs of varying morals/strengths/agendas that the players can interact with. However, it felt a bit 'front loaded' here. You start off with a whole bunch of them all wanting to do different things. I can imagine the PCs latching onto one or two of them and the others kind of falling by the wayside.
It's still my favorite of the three so far available.