Need Advice on Using a Torch as a Weapon

[A Horse With No Name]

Hello...I'm going to be GMing tomorrow, and one of my advanced players is playing a Goblin Barbarian. He wants to use a torch as a weapon. He selected "gauntlet" in Hero Lab, and gave it the "Improvised" weapon special ability. As a first level character, he's getting +9 to hit with it (+1 base attack bonus, +5 STR mod, +1 (small size), and +2 trait bonus. The trait he picked was surprise weapon.

Now, I'm trying to figure out if this is all "legal" or if he's getting over on me. Seems like he should be taking a -4 for an improvised weapon...and if he's not (he may say it's not really improvised since he's a Goblin and may be trained in it), then he shouldn't get that trait bonus. Sorta' seems like double dipping. The weapon is set to do 1d2 + 5 lethal damage. Now, a gauntlet is metal, but a torch seems to me that it would be wooden and wouldn't do lethal.

Some input from more experienced people would be greatly appreciated. I don't mind someone being innovative and maybe even stretching a wee bit, but +9 seems awfully good for Level 1.

Please advise.

Thanks.

[Ravingdork]

Torch Rules

A torch burns for 1 hour, shedding normal light in a 20-foot radius and increasing the light level by one step for an additional 20 feet beyond that area (darkness becomes dim light and dim light becomes normal light). A torch does not increase the light level in normal light or bright light. If a torch is used in combat, treat it as a one-handed improvised weapon that deals bludgeoning damage equal to that of a gauntlet of its size, plus 1 point of fire damage.

Unless the player has an archetype or traits that say otherwise, he should be treating it as a one-handed improvised weapon.

How does he have a +5 strength modifier at level 1 as a goblin? Is that with his Rage bonuses being factored in? Even so, that means he would have had to start with an 18.

+18 base
-02 racial modifier
+04 rage
=20 TOTAL

Furthermore, the Surprise Weapon trait grants him a +2 to hit with improvised weapons, but does nothing to remove the improvisation penalty, resulting in a net -2 to hit.

Surprise Weapon: You are skilled at fighting with objects not traditionally considered weapons. You gain a +2 trait bonus on attack rolls with improvised weapons.

Now, if he has the Catch Off-Guard feat, then he could negate that penalty and retain that +2 trait bonus to hit, giving him his current value.

Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised melee weapon. Unarmed opponents are flat-footed against any attacks you make with an improvised melee weapon.

I hope that helps.

[A Horse With No Name]

I let him switch a -2 to another stat and take +2 to STR. I figure that there are strong goblins, or charismatic orcs, or wise tieflings...maybe not many, but if someone wants to play an exception, that's okay.

He put all of his buy in into STR and DEX and CON, and has 8/8/7 in INT, WIS and CHA.

So what you're saying is that he shouldn't be getting near that much of a bonus to hit.

[Hubaris]

Surprise Weapon only gives you a +2 Trait Bonus to attack rolls with Improvised Weapons. It doesn't negate the penalty despite the name and fluff text.

Surprise Weapon wrote:

Surprise Weapon
Source Ultimate Campaign pg. 54 (Amazon)
Category Basic (Combat)
You are skilled at fighting with objects not traditionally considered weapons. You gain a +2 trait bonus on attack rolls with improvised weapons.

You would end up with +2 (Trait Bonus) -4 Non Proficiency for a net -2 to use the Torch.

If he wanted to negate the penalty he would need to take the Catch Off Guard feat or the following trait:

Rough and Ready wrote:

Rough and Ready [Link]

Source Adventurer's Armory pg. 31 (Amazon)
Your intense familiarity with the tools of your trade allows you to use them in combat as if they were actual weapons and makes them more effective for that purpose than they would normally be. When you use a tool of your trade (requiring at least 1 rank in the appropriate Craft or Profession skill) as a weapon, you do not take the improvised weapon penalty and instead receive a +1 trait bonus on your attack. This trait is commonly used with shovels, picks, blacksmith hammers, and other sturdy tools—lutes and brooms make terribly fragile weapons.

He would end up then with +1 (Trait Bonus) with no proficiency penalty.

...

Additionally when searching I also stumbled across this Racial Feat:

Fire Hand wrote:

Fire Hand (Combat)
Source Advanced Race Guide pg. 1 (Amazon)
Born with a torch in your hand, you have a gift with anything that burns.

Prerequisites: Goblin.

Benefit: You can wield a torch as a weapon without taking the nonproficient penalty and gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls with melee weapons that deal fire damage.

Do you know what Feat he has selected?

[A Horse With No Name]

He took Burn! Burn! Burn! to get 1d4 additional damage with the torch.

[Jayson MF Kip]

There is also this:

Torch Bearer

[Ravingdork]

A Horse With No Name wrote:

So what you're saying is that he shouldn't be getting near that much of a bonus to hit.

I've added more information to my first post.

[Hubaris]

So you said he had:

+5 Strength Mod
+1 BAB
+1 Size
+2 Trait Bonus
-4 Nonproficiency Penalty
--
+7 Attack Rolls

Assuming that Strength does not include Rage.

+7 Attack Rolls (Normal)
+9 Attack Rolls (Rage)

[A Horse With No Name]

Thank you, all of you, what a great community! Appreciate the replies!

[Hubaris]

No thank you!
Now I'm about to go make a Torch wielding Monstrosity.

... Thank Nethys for Masterwork Transformation.

[Ravingdork]

A Horse With No Name wrote:

I let him switch a -2 to another stat and take +2 to STR. I figure that there are strong goblins, or charismatic orcs, or wise tieflings...maybe not many, but if someone wants to play an exception, that's okay.

He put all of his buy in into STR and DEX and CON, and has 8/8/7 in INT, WIS and CHA.

So what you're saying is that he shouldn't be getting near that much of a bonus to hit.

Is everyone in your games playing goblins? With stat adjustments like that, there's no reason not to.

The additional Strength gives him +1 to hit, his size grants him +1 to hit and AC. That's well above and beyond what any other race grants. There's a reason you don't really see any strong, small races in the books.

Who would ever play any other kind of barbarian?

[Hubaris]

Also remember to adjust the size of the Torch to a small creature.

A Light Mace (if treated as such) goes from 1d6->1d4
A Gauntlet (if treated as such) goes from 1d3->1d2

And I have to echo Ravingdork in a way; though I don't know the rest of your races or custom rules. Though if you wanted it to be that there are Strong Goblins, Unsturdy Dwarves, Uncharismatic Dhampirs...

Thats already reflected in the point-buy.

Keep in mind a standard Goblin has 11 Strength.
By investing points to give him a 16 (18-2) Strength, he is well above the average for Goblins and is already extraordinary.