When Visionary Shardra uses her power to use knowledge instead of the listed skill on a barrier or to close, does it trigger a knowledge check vision?
Yes. She is making a knowledge check.
Visionary gets more visions :)
There you have it, confirmation from Keith.
The skill you use for a check adds its traits to the check. (This is in the rulebook.) So if you are using your Knowledge skill, by definition it is a Knowledge check.
In contrast, the stat stones (Emerald of Dexterity, Pearl of Wisdom, etc.) just change the die you are using, not the skill. So if you use a Pearl of Wisdom for a Dexterity check, for example, it's still a Dexterity check, not a Wisdom check.
Also contrast adding a skill to a check instead of using the skill for a check. If you had a power which added your Wisdom skill to your Strength combat check, it would still be a Strength check and not a Wisdom check, because adding a skill doesn't add the skill's traits to the check.
Echoing the confirmations above, just giving the actual rulebook references for them :)
☐ When you attempt a check to defeat a barrier (☐ or close a location), you may use your Knowledge skill instead of the listed skill. (☐ Characters gain this power while at your location.)
Determine Which Skill You're Using.
...
Some cards allow you to use a particular skill for a specific type of check, or to use one skill instead of another. (These cards generally say things like "For your combat check, use your Strength of Melee skill," or "Use your Strength skill instead of your Diplomacy skill.")
...
The skill you're using for the check, and any skill referenced by that skill, are added as traits to the check. For example, if your character has the skill Melee: Strength +2, and you are using your Melee skill, both the Strength and the Melee traits are added to the check.
...
If a power adds an additional skill to a check, that skill is not added as a trait to the check. For example, a card that adds your Craft skill to your combat check does not add the Craft trait to your check.
Play Cards and Use Powers That Affect Your Check (Optional).
...
Some cards and powers affect only specific types of checks, such as Dexterity checks, Acrobatics checks, or non-combat checks. If, on your character card, the skill you're using refers to another skill, both skills count for the purpose of determining the type of check. For example, if you're using the Arcane skill on a combat check, and your character card says that your Arcane skill is Intelligence +2, the check counts as both a combat Arcane check and a combat Intelligence check. Traits also determine the type of check; for example, if you're attempting a combat check and you played a weapon that added the Ranged trait, it counts as a Ranged combat check.
Given all of those together, we can piece together the following:
- Visionary Shardra's power is used during the Determine Which Skill You're Using step.
- Because of this, Knowledge and Wisdom are both added as traits to the check.
- Since these are the skills you're using for the check as well as traits on the check, the check is both a Knowledge check and a Wisdom check. Cards and powers that affect either can be used to affect this check.
- Because you replaced the original skill, the original skill is not added as a trait to the check. For example, if it was originally a Fortitude check, you replaced Fortitude with Knowledge so the check is no longer a Fortitude (or Constitution) check. Cards that affect Constitution or Fortutide checks cannot be played to affect this check.
- Since it's a Knowledge check per the above, Visionary Shardra indeed gets visions when she succeeds at it.
The following is left as an exercise for the reader: Can Visionary Shardra's power be used on Combat checks? If yes, does the check remain a Combat check (e.g. Knowledge is swapped out for the implicit Strength or Melee skill), or does it no longer remain a Combat check (e.g. Knowledge is swapped out for Combat itself)? If no, is it because the implicit Strength or Melee is not actually a "listed skill" so the power just doesn't work on Combat checks at all? If you need an example barrier, check out Stringy Fiend in AD5 as that has a Combat check to defeat iirc (and if not, assuredly one of the AD6 armies does).
The following is left as an exercise for the reader: Can Visionary Shardra's power be used on Combat checks? If yes, does the check remain a Combat check (e.g. Knowledge is swapped out for the implicit Strength or Melee skill), or does it no longer remain a Combat check (e.g. Knowledge is swapped out for Combat itself)? If no, is it because the implicit Strength or Melee is not actually a "listed skill" so the power just doesn't work on Combat checks at all? If you need an example barrier, check out Stringy Fiend in AD5 as that has a Combat check to defeat iirc (and if not, assuredly one of the AD6 armies does).
I'd say:
1) Yes she can use Knowledge on combat checks to defeat a barrier.2) Yes it is a Combat check. I would argue that she determines that she is doing a Strength or Melee skill for Combat and then uses her power to substitute Knowledge for either of those.
I hadn't thought of using her against these barriers (mainly because it is rare that a barrier would be a Combat like Stingy Fiend) but I can see it working.
The following is left as an exercise for the reader: Can Visionary Shardra's power be used on Combat checks? If yes, does the check remain a Combat check (e.g. Knowledge is swapped out for the implicit Strength or Melee skill), or does it no longer remain a Combat check (e.g. Knowledge is swapped out for Combat itself)? If no, is it because the implicit Strength or Melee is not actually a "listed skill" so the power just doesn't work on Combat checks at all? If you need an example barrier, check out Stringy Fiend in AD5 as that has a Combat check to defeat iirc (and if not, assuredly one of the AD6 armies does).I'd say:
1) Yes she can use Knowledge on combat checks to defeat a barrier.
2) Yes it is a Combat check. I would argue that she determines that she is doing a Strength or Melee skill for Combat and then uses her power to substitute Knowledge for either of those.I hadn't thought of using her against these barriers (mainly because it is rare that a barrier would be a Combat like Stingy Fiend) but I can see it working.
Yeah, that's how I would play it too. I just found it a curious corner case when typing out the above -- I was going to give Stringy Fiend as a wacky example in answering the original question due to the seeming non-intuitiveness of the power working on Combat checks (and what the consequences of that were), but then I stepped back and realized that there are alternate interpretations that others may prefer/argue for, so I raised it as a new question instead.
Answer backed up by yet another poster with quoted rules text
Would you like to Super-Size your order?
This is why I love these boards.
Question asked
Question answered short and simple
Dev confirms
Question reanswered with explanation why
Answer backed up by yet another poster with quoted rules text
Initially I was actually reluctant to answer rules questions on these boards (especially in the ninja quick style that my schedule usually allows), because the rigor and knowledge of the posters was _so good_ that I didn't want to distract from it.
It's a pretty high bar you guys set, and very cool.
Strength and Melee are implicit skills for combat checks. If you don't have a weapon, spell, or other "thing" that tells you what to do on a combat check, you can always use your strength or melee skill. And if you don't have Melee listed on your character card, it's a d4.
So Combat is either Strength or Melee skill, unless you have some power/thing that says otherwise. IMNSHO :)
I'd say Shardra can't use her power on Stringy Fiend. Exactly because:Strength or Melee is not actually a "listed skill" so the power just doesn't work on Combat checks at all
Isn't it a little weird that Combat isn't a skill?
Each bane card has a section called Check to Defeat. This section indicates the skills that can be used in checks against the bane and the difficulty of the checks.
From this it sounds like Combat is a skill (that no one has), and you play a card or use a power which substitutes a skill for that skill. Except, that's not quite right. Combat is a special thing all its own. Even when you've determined what skill you are using for the check, the check retains the trait combat, in addition to the check's other traits.
I'd say Shardra can't use her power on Stringy Fiend. Exactly because:Strength or Melee is not actually a "listed skill" so the power just doesn't work on Combat checks at allIsn't it a little weird that Combat isn't a skill?
Each bane card has a section called Check to Defeat. This section indicates the skills that can be used in checks against the bane and the difficulty of the checks.From this it sounds like Combat is a skill (that no one has), and you play a card or use a power which substitutes a skill for that skill. Except, that's not quite right. Combat is a special thing all its own. Even when you've determined what skill you are using for the check, the check retains the trait combat, in addition to the check's other traits.
I can image you could have a power which said "For your charisma check, use your dexterity or stealth skill +1d6" for example, and then the check would be a dexterity based charisma check. So I don't think it's treated differently in the rules. It's just a convention that nobody has the skill (well kind of, actually everyone effectively has it twice as strength+0 and melee+0, though that's not the way it's implemented) and that a lot of cards care about whether a check is combat or not.
It's a pretty high bar you guys set, and very cool.
Yeah man you better me good else...
Just kidding because
A) We/you are nice guys
and
B) We/you already are THAT good