Should the Mental Barrier spell give a deflection rather than shield bonus?


Homebrew and House Rules


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Proposed FAQ: Should the Mental Barrier line of spells provide a deflection rather than shield bonus?

Compare Mental Barrier I, a level 2 spell:

Quote:

Duration 1 round

DESCRIPTION
You put a barrier of mental energy that protects you from harm.

This barrier grants you a +4 shield bonus to AC. In addition, you take half damage from mind thrust I and II (reduced to onequarter on a successful Will save).

Shield, a level 1 spell:

Quote:

Duration 1 min./level (D)

DESCRIPTION
Shield creates an invisible shield of force that hovers in front of you. It negates magic missile attacks directed at you. The disk also provides a +4 shield bonus to AC. This bonus applies against incorporeal touch attacks, since it is a force effect. The shield has no armor check penalty or arcane spell failure chance.

The Mental Barrier psionic power provides a deflection bonus, it's hard to believe the psychic spell version is supposed to be so much worse than Shield except for the very niche ability to take half damage from Mind Thrust.


Slithery D wrote:

Proposed FAQ: Should the Mental Barrier line of spells provide a deflection rather than shield bonus?

Compare Mental Barrier I, a level 2 spell:

Quote:

Duration 1 round

DESCRIPTION
You put a barrier of mental energy that protects you from harm.

This barrier grants you a +4 shield bonus to AC. In addition, you take half damage from mind thrust I and II (reduced to onequarter on a successful Will save).

Shield, a level 1 spell:

Quote:

Duration 1 min./level (D)

DESCRIPTION
Shield creates an invisible shield of force that hovers in front of you. It negates magic missile attacks directed at you. The disk also provides a +4 shield bonus to AC. This bonus applies against incorporeal touch attacks, since it is a force effect. The shield has no armor check penalty or arcane spell failure chance.

The Mental Barrier psionic power provides a deflection bonus, it's hard to believe the psychic spell version is supposed to be so much worse than Shield except for the very niche ability to take half damage from Mind Thrust.

Depending on the class list, spells are very often bumped up or down a level. Reason being some classes have a natural bend towards particular effects. If you read the spell creation rules you will get a more detailed explanation.

Point being, it isn't strange for a spell with similar effects to be different levels. I don't believe that an FAQ is necessary or likely to happen in regards to this spell.


You might have missed that Mental Barrier I is cast as an immediate action, making it quite different than the shield spell.

Depending on circumstances, a shield bonus to AC from a spell can be fair more desirable than a deflection bonus. Many characters can't or don't wield a shield but almost all of them have a ring of protection, so even though deflection is a more powerful effect for AC, it often isn't strictly better when sources from a spell or other power.


You apparently missed the duration difference or significant, 1 round (period! not per level) vs 1 min/level. This is a much weaker spell at a higher spell level. Psychics also have Shield on their spell list, so Mental Barrier I is a really bad deal. Finally, it's obviously based on the old Mental Barrier psionic power from 3.5 and of Dreamscarred Press adaptation, which provide deflection bonuses. That all suggests this was either a mistake or a poorly thought out decision to make Mental Barrier a shield rather than deflection bonus.

A deflection bonus still wouldn't make it very good, but at least it would stack with a Shield spell or a carried shield and provide some marginal benefit if you're included to burn a decent spell slot for a one round defensive benefit.

A 3rd level character can use a 2nd level spell slot for a +4 shield bonus for 1 round (Mental Barrier I) or a 1st level spell slot for a +4 shield bonus for 30 rounds (Shield). LOLwut. Yes, there's the issue of Magic Missile vs. Mind Thrust protection, but that also weighs heavily in favor of Shield. MM is more common, and Shield negates instead of providing half damage.

MB is an immediate action, but that's not much use, and less when it doesn't stack with any existing shield bonuses you're likely to have.

Sovereign Court

I find that I rarely cast Shield. At the start of a fight I can't afford to spend a standard action on that when I could be using it to put pressure on the enemy. A round spent casting Shield isn't spent casting Haste, Glitterdust, Black Tentacles, Invisibility, Summon Monster...

In addition, I shouldn't need it: I shouldn't me near enemies that want to attack me. There should be a PC warrior in the way. If I do end up in melee, getting away should be a first priority.

Thus, Mental Barrier is quite good for me; it's the bonus when I need it, if I need it, and for about as long as I want to need it.

If I wanted Shield, I'd get a Wand of Shield. It doesn't provoke (good if I actually need Shield) and if I need more than a minute something has gone totally wrong.


If I wanted a shield at low levels I'd carry a heavy wooden shield as a psychic caster. And I'd want it because there are ranged attackers out there. And at medium levels I'd definitely see some use having a permanent +4 shield bonus for 7-10 minutes as I clear multiple encounters out of a building or large dungeon sections.

I don't think Mental Barrier is a bad idea, it should just stack with other protections if its duration is that short.


Slithery D wrote:

If I wanted a shield at low levels I'd carry a heavy wooden shield as a psychic caster. And I'd want it because there are ranged attackers out there. And at medium levels I'd definitely see some use having a permanent +4 shield bonus for 7-10 minutes as I clear multiple encounters out of a building or large dungeon sections.

I don't think Mental Barrier is a bad idea, it should just stack with other protections if its duration is that short.

And others don't have a problem with it as it is. They aren't the same and each spell has its benefits for particular uses. You obviously have an opinion on it, it is just that it conflicts with Paizo's idea of what the spell should do.


You're assuming you would know when an encounter will start. In that situation, shield is much better, yes, and if your whole campaign is like that, don't bother with mental barrier.But, In a situation that you don't know a fight is rumbling, this is excellent. After all, unless you have a very innovative build, as an arcane or psychic full caster your main defense is being behind the meat shields. You don't expect to be attacked that many times an encounter, so one round of defense against a known attack isn't that much worse than a minute, and an immediate action is better tenfold than a standard action. Of course you shouldn't take this spell at 5th level, but let's consider taking it at 9th level:
Assuming you are a human (because why would you be something else?) the second level spell you get at 9 is your 7th. You have 6 3rd level spells known and 3 4th level spells known. As for spells per day you probably have 5 4th level spells, 7 3rd level spells and 8 2nd level spells. This means you have 12 spells to cast before needing to even think using a precious standard action to cast a second level spell. So, to summarize, at 9th level it takes one seventh of your spells known of your third highest level casting, doesn't come at the expense of casting a different spell this turn, and can basically be cast three times before you even start noticing a drain on your resources. Seems like an excellent spell, and at higher levels an excellent line of spells, to have.

And like Dave said, you are far more likely to have a deflection bonus on you than a shield bonus.

Edit: Took a break while writing this post, only to find I have been partly ninja'd. Could have spared myself quite a bit of writing *sigh*


I'm going to agree with the others, in that things are they way they should be.

Keep in mind, what you are railing against is just the first spell of a whole line of spells. At its final level, a +8 shield bonus to AC plus Moderate Fortification for an immediate action, is absolutely nothing to sneeze at.


Flagged to move to suggestions. The actual rules are very clear.

IMHO it does look a bit weak for a level 2 spell, but it's not the weakest level 2 spell by far.


Of course, for arguments sake...

Wouldn't an Insight bonus be more appropriate, as Mental Barrier is actively countering a mental assault? Likewise, a preternatural awareness granting an Insight bonus would also thematically fit for being able to "evade" a potential critical hit or sneak attack.


Personally I think the psychic immediate action defensive spells get better as you get high level, just because they are a useful application of your lower level spells. I am probably not going to be in a rush to grab mind barrier at 4h level, but at 9th, it starts looking pretty good, like kaboogy was saying. When you are using a spell 2-3 levels behind yout highest level spell slot, the immediate action is worth it. I almost never bother with shield until I can throw away a 5th level slot or metamagic rod to quicken it, since the way my GMs run, pre-combat buff time is rare. Different spells for different styles.

Also, since psychics don't have arcane spell failure in armor, it is a little easier to get them a solid AC, although still requires building around the concept, and mind barrier 3 will help your AC more than a +5 heavy shield, if only for a little while.

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