Some Other Guy
|
I'm curious what kind of effects would encourage making a single attack. I understand maneuvers were designed for this purpose, but I want to know what would types of things would have someone thinking "I can make one attack and do X, or make 2-3 attacks" and not have the answer be obvious.
For example, let's look at a paladin. At level 6, they get their second attack. If the first attack did X instead, it would be a competitive choice with making a full attack. What would X need to be?
| Ciaran Barnes |
The player would have to select features and/or feats that grant the ability to make special attacks as a standard action, such as Cleave or Vital Strike. For the large part though, the system does not offer standard action weapon attacks that are completely on-par with full attack actions. There are some pretty good standard actions out there, but they mostly involve spells.
Some Other Guy
|
The player would have to select features and/or feats that grant the ability to make special attacks as a standard action, such as Cleave or Vital Strike. For the large part though, the system does not offer standard action weapon attacks that are completely on-par with full attack actions. There are some pretty good standard actions out there, but they mostly involve spells.
I meant something custom, not existing mechanics. Like, if YOU were a paladin, what would you want your standard action attack to do to make it sometimes worth using over two attacks?
| vorpaljesus |
The only things that are gonna be better are stacking debuffs or a SoL effect unless your chance to hit with the second attack is low. Adding something significant like staggered, nauseated, stunned. Things like that are worth it but you many times you can still make that second attack even after doing that with the first.
Some Other Guy
|
The only things that are gonna be better are stacking debuffs or a SoL effect unless your chance to hit with the second attack is low. Adding something significant like staggered, nauseated, stunned. Things like that are worth it but you many times you can still make that second attack even after doing that with the first.
What if additional damage was added? Something like 2d6 or just a flat number?
| vorpaljesus |
I could see a flat number being tempting if it's weighed against the potential damage of connecting with another attack.
I guess it's relevant to ask why do you want to encourage the use of just the standard action attack? Not saying it's a Bad idea but I'm interested. Cuz once people get up to three attacks they're damn sure gonna want to use them!
| RedDingo |
Make Vital Strike a feat that scales with BAB instead of the start of tree to burn your feats on. The balancing factor is that full attacks already increases your damage potential via repeating damage bonus and crit potential. Vital strike allows you to deal more damage an move in the same round (albeit less reliably than full attack).
Some Other Guy
|
I could see a flat number being tempting if it's weighed against the potential damage of connecting with another attack.
I guess it's relevant to ask why do you want to encourage the use of just the standard action attack? Not saying it's a Bad idea but I'm interested. Cuz once people get up to three attacks they're damn sure gonna want to use them!
The main reason is I'm trying to design a full BAB class that has more interesting things to do than stand still and full attack, like all the others do.
| Claxon |
I can think of ways of encouraging characters to invest in things that help standard action attacks...
If everyone in the game world has the equivalent of Spring Attack it will become prudent to be mobile and deadly. If your enemy is constantly moving in, attacking you, and moving away you wont have a chance to full attack them unless you can pin them in one location.
If you do this, then player characters will grow organically to deal with this and will find ways to make standard action attacks useful.
| Lazlo.Arcadia |
I'm curious what kind of effects would encourage making a single attack. I understand maneuvers were designed for this purpose, but I want to know what would types of things would have someone thinking "I can make one attack and do X, or make 2-3 attacks" and not have the answer be obvious.
For example, let's look at a paladin. At level 6, they get their second attack. If the first attack did X instead, it would be a competitive choice with making a full attack. What would X need to be?
The most obvious answer from my perspective would be that a Standard action still allows for a Move action as well which allows for much greater tactical positioning. Working with your friend the Rogue for example to allow his damage per round to EXPLODE because he is now dual wielding and full sneak attack bonus with each attack. Does it take away from your spot light? Yeah a little, but also firmly establishes you as a must have member of that group.
| My Self |
Huh, why not have a sort of damage multiplier mechanic? Depending on the number of expected attacks, you could have a certain damage multiplier for a standard action attack. Say, if you only have 1 attack, you would only get a 1x multiplier on your attack. For each additional attack you could take in a full attack action, you get an extra 0.5x multiplier to your standard attack damage. This would have the added advantage of being able to punch through DR better than a full attack, although some feats let you beat DR anyways.
Also, this 100% benefits martials more than casters.
# Attacks - Damage Multiplier
1 - 1x
2 - 1.5x
3 - 2x
4 - 2.5x
5 - 3x
6 - 3.5x
7 - 4x
8 - 4.5x
9 - 5x
And just for reference, here are the expected number of attacks in a full attack.
1: 1 (+1) -iterative 1
5: 2 (+5/+5) -iterative 1, speed/haste
6: 3 (+6/+6/+1) -iterative 1, 2, speed/haste
11: 4 (+11/+11/+6/+1) -iterative 1, 2, 3, speed/haste
16: 5 (+16/+16/+11/+6/+1) -iterative 1, 2, 3, 4, speed/haste
Expected full attack (Archery Full BAB):
1: 1 (+1) -iterative 1
3: 2 (+1/+1) -iterative 1, rapid shot
5: 3 (+3/+3/+3) -iterative 1, rapid shot, speed/haste
6: 4 (+4/+4/+4/-1) -iterative 1, 2, rapid shot, speed/haste
7: 5 (+5(x2)/+5/+5/+0) -iterative 1, 2, rapid shot, manyshot, speed/haste
11: 6 (+9(x2)/+9/+9/+4/-1) -iterative 1, 2, 3, rapid shot, manyshot, speed/haste
16: 7 (+14(x2)/+14/+14/+9/+4/-1) -iterative 1, 2, 3, 4, rapid shot, manyshot, speed/haste
Expected full attack (TWF Full BAB):
1: 2 (-1/-1) -iterative 1, TWF
5: 3 (+3/+3/+3) -iterative 1, TWF, speed/haste
6: 4 (+4/+4/+4/-1) -iterative 1, 2, TWF, speed/haste
7: 5 (+5/+5/+5/+0/+0) -iterative 1, 2, TWF, Imp TWF, speed/haste
11: 7 (+9/+9/+9/+4/+4/-1/-1) -iterative 1, 2, 3, TWF, Imp TWF, Greater TWF, speed/haste
16: 8 (+14/+14/+14/+9/+9/+4/+4/-1) -iterative 1, 2, 3, 4, TWF, Imp TWF, Greater TWF, speed/haste
Expected full attack (Monk):
1: 2 (-1/-1) -iterative 1, TWF
4: 3 (+2/+2/+2) -iterative 1, TWF, ki pool
5: 4 (+3/+3/+3/+3) -iterative 1, TWF, ki pool, speed/haste
6: 5 (+4/+4/+4/+4/-1) -iterative 1, 2, TWF, ki pool, speed/haste
8: 6 (+6/+6/+6/+6/+1/+1) -iterative 1, 2, TWF, Imp TWF, ki pool, speed/haste
11: 7 (+9/+9/+9/+9/+4/+4/-1/) -iterative 1, 2, 3, TWF, Imp TWF, ki pool, speed/haste
15: 8 (+13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3) -iterative 1, 2, 3, TWF, Imp TWF, Greater TWF, ki pool, speed/haste
16: 9 (+14/+14/+14/+14/+9/+9/+4/+4/-1) -iterative 1, 2, 3, 4, TWF, Imp TWF, Greater TWF, ki pool, speed/haste
Expected full attack (3/4 BAB):
1: 1 (+0) -iterative 1
5: 2 (+3/+3) -iterative 1, speed/haste
8: 3 (+6/+6/+1) -iterative 1, 2, speed/haste
15: 4 (+11/+11/+6/+1) -iterative 1, 2, 3, speed/haste
Expected full attack (Archery 3/4 BAB):
1: 1 (+0) -iterative 1
3: 2 (+0/+0) -iterative 1, rapid shot
5: 3 (+1/+1/+1) -iterative 1, rapid shot, speed/haste
8: 4 (+4/+4/+4/-1) -iterative 1, 2, rapid shot, speed/haste
9: 5 (+4(x2)/+4/+4/-1) -iterative 1, 2, rapid shot, manyshot, speed/haste
15: 6 (+9(x2)/+9/+9/+4/-2) -iterative 1, 2, 3, rapid shot, manyshot, speed/haste
Expected full attack (TWF 3/4 BAB):
1: 2 (-2/-2) -iterative 1, TWF
5: 3 (+1/+1) -iterative 1, TWF, speed/haste
8: 4 (+4/+4/+4/-1) -iterative 1, 2, TWF, speed/haste
9: 5 (+4/+4/+4/-1/-1) -iterative 1, 2, TWF, Imp TWF, speed/haste
15: 7 (+9/+9/+9/+4/+4/+4/-1/-1) -iterative 1, 2, 3, TWF, Imp TWF, Greater TWF, speed/haste