For those of you DMing 4th edition. Do you give any indication as to which monsters are minions?
I have solely been a player (and dont yet own the DMG in case it's covered there). We have had a few instances of 'wasting' our daily or encounter powers on some creature where any old hit would have sufficed. I wondered whether that is an issue - maybe we'll get better at working it out? Maybe our DM should be describing them as weaklings? Maybe it's just part of the luck/tactics - let the battle proceed long enough to be sure who the tough opponents are, countered by the desire to use those powers early which last for an entire encounter and so maximise the benefit we get.
For myself, I usually describe the minions as looking and acting less competent than the others, unless I happen to want to fool the players. And monsters are differentiated in what they carry or do, with minions often getting the lesser powers and weapons.
As a player,I usually like to get a handle or idea of what we are up against before using those encounter powers and especially those dailies. Often times the DM description is enough to allow one to know who the BBEG in the room is, but not always. Sometimes you have to combat them a little before knowing what's up.
For those of you DMing 4th edition. Do you give any indication as to which monsters are minions?
Nothing in the DMG, from what I've seen, tells how to present monsters. Maybe the DMG2 will have more info, but I haven't seen anything on that yet.
Being an aspiring DM, I'd say that grouping like monsters together is the best course. Using colored Sorry "pawns", minis, etc will help them get the idea. After all, the Minions usually look similar in the way of equipment, training, etc. Kaplow Games had some cheap "tabs" that were a circle on the bottom and a circle that was glued perpendicular (can't find them on Google Images, but maybe email them).
For those of you DMing 4th edition. Do you give any indication as to which monsters are minions?
I do not give any indication on which ones are minions because I don't want to make them big fat targets for the controllers to take out before they even get near the heavy-hitters. Minions can be wiped clean by controllers so therefore identifying them is somewhat problematic because it allows the controller to know which ones to hit and the others to know which ones not to bother with at all.
For those of you DMing 4th edition. Do you give any indication as to which monsters are minions?
Read the part on Monster Knowledge in the Skills chapter. I may be reading it wrong, but a successful check gives the characters knowledge about the type of monster. It may not include such facts as Minions or Brute or such, but I allow it. If they fail the check though, they'll have to find out the hard way.
As a DM, it depends if they've met the monster type before. If they have, then they recognise them. If not, they can roll a check. Usually they just try hitting one with something simple and seeing what happens.
As a player, I quite like having to take the trouble to find out who's a minion and who isn't. You'll only ever blow an encounter or daily once before you get cautious confronted by a room full of them.
As a DM, it depends if they've met the monster type before. If they have, then they recognise them. If not, they can roll a check. Usually they just try hitting one with something simple and seeing what happens.
As a player, I quite like having to take the trouble to find out who's a minion and who isn't. You'll only ever blow an encounter or daily once before you get cautious confronted by a room full of them.
Also (and this is a metagaming), if your DM tells you "The goblin hits for 6 damage" without rolling dice, that is a typically sign of a minion ;)
I think you can easily go either way, whatever works at your table basically. I think it really boils down to what kind of game your running - the more 'beer & pretzels' type game the more likely your going to just want to allow the players to know what is going on.
On the other hand, if your looking for something a little more immersive, then minion status becomes a tool that essentially splits into two parts. One part is where creatures are minions because they are about to fall apart. Ancient but brittle skeletons fall into this category. In this case they don't die easy because the PCs hit them, they die easy because just about anything could destroy them. Here the DM is likely to advertise their vulnerable status and the players are meant to pick up on the fact that they are minions.
The second version of minion is a minion that is only vulnerable because of theatrics and genre. This might be an Orc that, up until this moment, lived a normal Orc life, faced harsh dangers, was hurt but survived, may have been in lethal scrapes with other Orcs or human armies or what not received wounds but recovered etc. In all respects a normal Orc, but today is not a good day for our Orc because the genre has cannon fodder and today he is the cannon fodder. In this case I'd generally have the minions be disguised, Legolas did not know which Orcs would survive the hits and which would not until after the arrow hit the Orc. My feeling is neither should the players.
As to wasted Daily's and such - I think that its up to the players to discern when to use your big moves. As a rule I don't think Jackie Chan usually goes into the slow mo super combo on just any of the hundred or so guys he dispatches in any given movie - He saves that stuff up for the really uber bad asses that have already shown that they are capable of going toe to toe with his fancy footwork.
It fits with the Genre that you pull out all the stops when things really go bad and if disguised minions force the players to be discerning before they pull out their top tier stuff that is not necessarily a bad thing.
For those of you DMing 4th edition. Do you give any indication as to which monsters are minions?Read the part on Monster Knowledge in the Skills chapter. I may be reading it wrong, but a successful check gives the characters knowledge about the type of monster. It may not include such facts as Minions or Brute or such, but I allow it. If they fail the check though, they'll have to find out the hard way.
Easily disguised if the DM wants to, he can roll dice but not pay attention to the result. Also a lot of DMs roll the hit and the damage at the same time - players are likely not going to really clue in to the fact that the DM does not much care what the damage die says.
In this case I'd generally have the minions be disguised, Legolas did not know which Orcs would survive the hits and which would not until after the arrow hit the Orc. My feeling is neither should the players.
Good point.
Thanks to all for the comments. We didnt really think of using the appropriate skill to distinguish between minions and non-
What approach is the most fun for the group as a whole. Personally I like making it clear as a DM, and knowing as a player, who the minions are.
Also (and this is a metagaming), if your DM tells you "The goblin hits for 6 damage" without rolling dice, that is a typically sign of a minion ;)As a DM, it depends if they've met the monster type before. If they have, then they recognise them. If not, they can roll a check. Usually they just try hitting one with something simple and seeing what happens.
As a player, I quite like having to take the trouble to find out who's a minion and who isn't. You'll only ever blow an encounter or daily once before you get cautious confronted by a room full of them.
I always roll a dice( ignore the result) then tell the player the amount I decide for minions, some do damage in line with a non-minion others do a bit less.
I do descibe the minion as overly agressive and seemingly lacking in skill and defence. Personally I have no problem with the controller wiping out minions. Sone attacks miss them.