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Consider some scenarios:
1) A wizard starts casting (not defensively) Summon Monster. Before his next turn, an enemy comes close enough to attack. Does the enemy get an AoO?
2) A PC is Helpless. An enemy Moves up and starts a Coup de Grace with his 2H weapon as a Standard action, aiming to complete it as a Standard on the next turn. The PC's friends move up to the enemy. Do they get AoOs?
Bonus question: can the enemy take AoOs with his weapon while working on the CdG, or would he have to break off his CdG to free it up first? Can he do that?
1) I think the attack of opportunity occurs when the action begins, not after. If you're not threatening when the action begins no AoO. That being said, the enemy can still hit him during the round to attempt to interrupt the casting. Depending on level and damage output, it is likely the wizard can't successfully make the concentration check.
2) Unclear. Again, I think the AoO occurs when the action is begun. The whole begin a full round action using a standard and finish it with a standard is what makes this murky. I'd probably rule no AoO but there would be opportunities for allies to disarm, reposition, bull rush, kill, etc the enemy to prevent the coup.
The problem here is that when the actions are started the creatures taking the actions that would normally provoke are not in threatened squares, so therefore aren't open to AoO. When the enemy does move into position to threaten the action has already been started. So the question boils down to do actions provoke for the entire duration which they are undertaken?
This is a very unclear area of the rules.
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I went looking for this principle that provocation happens when you begin the action. I haven't found an actual rule saying so.
On the one hand, standing up from Prone; until you've finished standing up you're prone, and can't be tripped again.
On the other hand, the idea of an AoO is that by engaging in some risky activity, you leave yourself open to attacks. It makes sense that as long as you continue the risky action, you're vulnerable.
These two cases aren't actually contradictory; the first AoO is before someone finishes the action and until you've finished standing up, you're still prone.
I went looking for this principle that provocation happens when you begin the action. I haven't found an actual rule saying so.
Right, that's what I'm questioning.
The way everything has been written seems to me like it has a built in assumption that you only provoke when the action is initiated. What I would hope for is clarification that such is the case, or that taking an action that provokes and has a duration longer than your turn would continue to provoke afterwards.
It's unclear to me. I lean towards only provoke when the action is undertaken, but it certainly does make it right. Only what seem simpler to me.
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You only provoke attacks of opportunity when you begin casting a spell, even though you might continue casting for at least 1 full round. While casting a spell, you don't threaten any squares around you.
For spells, you only provoke when you begin casting. I would extend the same rule to most other actions, personally.
*Just want to clarify, it my previous post I meant doesn't make it right. Whoops, darn typos.
If you are casting a multi round spell, you are still spending the full round action every round as part of spell concentration for casting, so when its your turn again and you decide to continue casting, you provoke again (from the first time) so if the PC moved up since then, they would get this new AoO.
Same deal with Coup De Grace, once they spend the standard to try to finish the coup de grace, they provoke to the friend PC. Unfortunately, unlike the spell, it doesn't cancel the CDG.
Bonus: no ruling and I can see it argued both ways "He isn't diverting too much attention away from finding a weak spot on the unconscious dude" and "he is moving the weapon away from the CDG strike" which seems to be a question of abstraction and as such: consult your GM.
You only provoke attacks of opportunity when you begin casting a spell, even though you might continue casting for at least 1 full round. While casting a spell, you don't threaten any squares around you.For spells, you only provoke when you begin casting. I would extend the same rule to most other actions, personally.
+1
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If you are casting a multi round spell, you are still spending the full round action every round as part of spell concentration for casting, so when its your turn again and you decide to continue casting, you provoke again (from the first time) so if the PC moved up since then, they would get this new AoO.
Did you read the Core Rulebook citation above? It disagrees with you.
I remember reading somewhere else that it provoked every round there after, so I will look for my citation, but not I did not see that.
Edit: found it, its under unchained, so ignore that since unchained doesn't mean anything unless specifically implemented.
If you are casting a multi round spell, you are still spending the full round action every round as part of spell concentration for casting, so when its your turn again and you decide to continue casting, you provoke again (from the first time) so if the PC moved up since then, they would get this new AoO.
Same deal with Coup De Grace, once they spend the standard to try to finish the coup de grace, they provoke to the friend PC. Unfortunately, unlike the spell, it doesn't cancel the CDG.
Bonus: no ruling and I can see it argued both ways "He isn't diverting too much attention away from finding a weak spot on the unconscious dude" and "he is moving the weapon away from the CDG strike" which seems to be a question of abstraction and as such: consult your GM.
The bolded part would only apply in you were attempting to cast a spell that took longer than 1 round. The spell completes right before your turn in the next round and requires no action on your part in the following round to finish casting. Just want to make sure this is clear for people, because very few spells take longer than 1 round to cast, and most of those are not feasible to cast in combat in the first place. And to clarify you take an action to concentrate (standard action), it unclear if this would actually provoke an AoO or not though. It is actually clear that casting a spell only provoke when you initially begin casting, regardless of how many rounds it actually takes for the spell to be cast. Though you can still interrupt it by harming the caster and forcing a concentration check. Regardless, this is very minor case of possible combat actions.
As far as the CdG is concerned you're spending the second standard action to finish the CdG not initiate it. So it's still unclear.
We really need a more authoritative statement about whether or not activities that provoke, which can be spread across multiple rounds continue to provoke after the first round.
If you are casting a multi round spell, you are still spending the full round action every round as part of spell concentration for casting, so when its your turn again and you decide to continue casting, you provoke again (from the first time) so if the PC moved up since then, they would get this new AoO.
Same deal with Coup De Grace, once they spend the standard to try to finish the coup de grace, they provoke to the friend PC. Unfortunately, unlike the spell, it doesn't cancel the CDG.
Bonus: no ruling and I can see it argued both ways "He isn't diverting too much attention away from finding a weak spot on the unconscious dude" and "he is moving the weapon away from the CDG strike" which seems to be a question of abstraction and as such: consult your GM.
The bolded part would only apply in you were attempting to cast a spell that took longer than 1 round. The spell completes right before your turn in the next round and requires no action on your part in the following round to finish casting. Just want to make sure this is clear for people, because very few spells take longer than 1 round to cast, and most of those are not feasible to cast in combat in the first place. And to clarify you take an action to concentrate (standard action), it unclear if this would actually provoke an AoO or not though. Regardless, this is very minor case of possible combat actions.
As far as the CdG is concerned you're spending the second standard action to finish the CdG not initiate it. So it's still unclear.
We really need a more authoritative statement about whether or not activities that provoke, which can be spread across multiple rounds continue to provoke after the first round.
Well I just withdrew the fact that it provokes normally (and same goes for completing CDG since that was also with unchained action economy rules), but you use both move and standard when casting a spell that takes longer than one round for every round till its cast either way. You are "concentrating" on the spell but its not a concentration action.
You only provoke once for each action. That is a fundamental rule of AoOs. If you could provoke multiple times for the same action the rules would tell us they could.
With that as a baseline provoking when you start an action is simple, sensible and logical, and there is precedent set with casting spells.
Allowing AoOs to provoke at other times will quickly get messy, requires extra bookkeeping and is generally not supported by the rules.
An action spread other two turns with the 'start and complete full round action' actions is still only a single action, just split into 2 parts.
Actually, you can provoke more than one for an "action", depending on exactly what you mean by action.
For example, making a ranged attack provokes. Casting a spell provokes.
Making a ranged attacks granted by a casting a spell provokes twice. Once for casting, and once for making the ranged attack. Someone with combat reflexes could hit you twice.
You only provoke once for each action. That is a fundamental rule of AoOs. If you could provoke multiple times for the same action the rules would tell us they could....
An action spread other two turns with the 'start and complete full round action' actions is still only a single action, just split into 2 parts.
While I would agree with you on things that don't spread more than across 2 rounds (like CDG), if you are spending 10 minutes to cast a spell in combat or the like, 1 why? 2 it should come with some penalty/punishment for leaving yourself open for so long and provoking every round seems a good balancer IMO.
Actually, you can provoke more than one for an "action", depending on exactly what you mean by action.
For example, making a ranged attack provokes. Casting a spell provokes.
Making a ranged attacks granted by a casting a spell provokes twice. Once for casting, and once for making the ranged attack. Someone with combat reflexes could hit you twice.
it's still two actions, attacks made as parts of a spell are free actions the first round and standard actions there after. In this case it's provoke from casting as a standard/full and provoke from ranged attack as a free action.
Two different opportunities can arise with a more complex series of actions within one action. Not relevant for this discussion though, and doesn't really change anything or add anything, it's a different issue surely. Coup de Grace in and of itself is a single 'action'. Casting a 3 round spell is a single 'action'.
If you coup de grace with a bow you will provoke twice - both at the start of the action. Which is the point.
While I would agree with you on things that don't spread more than across 2 rounds (like CDG), if you are spending 10 minutes to cast a spell in combat or the like, 1 why? 2 it should come with some penalty/punishment for leaving yourself open for so long and provoking every round seems a good balancer IMO.You only provoke once for each action. That is a fundamental rule of AoOs. If you could provoke multiple times for the same action the rules would tell us they could....
An action spread other two turns with the 'start and complete full round action' actions is still only a single action, just split into 2 parts.
House rule it if you want, but the rules don't support that interpretation.
(apologies for the double post - just trying to keep up :))
While I would agree with you on things that don't spread more than across 2 rounds (like CDG), if you are spending 10 minutes to cast a spell in combat or the like, 1 why? 2 it should come with some penalty/punishment for leaving yourself open for so long and provoking every round seems a good balancer IMO.You only provoke once for each action. That is a fundamental rule of AoOs. If you could provoke multiple times for the same action the rules would tell us they could....
An action spread other two turns with the 'start and complete full round action' actions is still only a single action, just split into 2 parts.
House rule it if you want, but the rules don't support that interpretation.
(apologies for the double post - just trying to keep up :))
You only provoke once per action in all cases; so even though its ranged and a coup de grace, you only provoke once.
The wording was intended to be that it is a house rule, but yes rules say once. I just don't see why not try to improve rules as you go instead of hard lining yourself into RAW only when RAW doesn't make sense.
(and yes, its hard to reply to two people at once)
Handy FAQs:
AoOs explicitly occur before the action that triggers them (should have found that sooner!)
Support for the assertion that if you perform 2 actions that provoke within a single complex action both provoke. Ranged attack provokes an AoO, Coup de Grace provokes an AoO. Ranged Coup de Grace provokes twice.
Edit: I'm sure there is a tidier way to state that, but hopefully the point is clear.
No, because that's one event, read your link again.
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The trip FAQ seems appropriate at first, however;
1) FAQs have scope limited to the actual question. They can be informative on other things, but only have power of rule on the actual question, in this case, standing up from prone.
2) You can't be tripped again before resolving standing up; it doesn't say initiate standing up. With the reason that until you've fully stood up you're still Prone and can't be made Prone-er.
I'm still looking for the rule saying AoOs have to happen when an action is initiated, as opposed to before the provoking action is completed.
Sometimes a combatant in a melee lets her guard down or takes a reckless action. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for free. These free attacks are called attacks of opportunity. See the Attacks of Opportunity diagram for an example of how they work.
Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.
(...)
Provoking an Attack of Opportunity: Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing certain actions within a threatened square.
(...)
Performing a Distracting Act: Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle.
Three times this says the same thing: An AoO is provoked if both these conditions are True:
#1 Someone "takes certain actions"/"performs certain actions"/"some actions, when performed".#2 The provoker is in a threatened square.
Notice that it doesn't say anything about initiating actions; it's performing it, not beginning to perform, that provokes.
(...)
An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).
This tells us that as soon as those conditions are met, the AoO is provoked. This superficially looks like starting an action provokes the AoO, because as soon as you start, #1 evaluates to True. But that's assuming #2 was already true.
And the case I'm talking about is the reverse: #1 is true (casting Summon Monster) when #2 becomes true (an enemy comes close). When that happens, both conditions are met: you are performing certain actions while threatened. So an AoO is provoked immediately.
While this is a good find, I think the Provoke on initiation has to do with the fact that the action provokes and most actions are done with before the end of a round. Call the connection a fallacy but as far as people interpreting it, it makes more sense in people's mind that you don't get to attack a caster when you move up AND get to spend an attack action to attack again; although, I do like the concept now that I think about it.