Natural Spell at level 4?

[Scrooge.]

So apparently the level 4 PFS pregen druid (Lini) has Natural Spell. I have been given to understand that the earliest you can get natural spell without retraining is 5th level. I suppose the pregen could have retrained at some point, but I think those pregens were written before Ultimate Campaign created retraining rules. I'd chalk it up to designer error, but its kinda lame that the level 4 pregen at the table can have a feat that the level 4 core druid at the same table can't. Any elucidating thoughts and/or things to tell an unhappy player?

[Crimeo]

If it's PFS, isn't that PFS's fault, not Paizo's?

Regardless, you seem to have answered your own question: the player at the table can get it by retraining (if PFS allows that, but the normal game certainly does), so whether it was originally an error or not, it doesn't seem unfair NOW that you can actually match it if you want.

[Bozworth.]

Crimeo wrote:

If it's PFS, isn't that PFS's fault, not Paizo's?

Regardless, you seem to have answered your own question: the player at the table can get it by retraining (if PFS allows that, but the normal game certainly does), so whether it was originally an error or not, it doesn't seem unfair NOW that you can actually match it if you want.

Core players can't use the retrain rules, and I'd never thought of PFS as that separate, but fair enough.

[Bozworth.]

And oops, this is my other avatar.

[Bozworth.]

And I guess the actual question is, is it actually an error, or do the society people think you can take Natural Spell before you get wild shape.

[Crimeo]

What do you mean by "core players"? Is that a PFS term? Or do you just mean "in campaigns where you are only allowed to use core books?" If the latter, that's just a house rule. If you enact house rules but then use material from sources whose authors may have been assuming things beyond your house ruled restricted book list, well then yeah you're going to run into stuff like this all the time.

Generally, in Paizo materials, the NPCs that they include in the core rulebook, for example, only use core rulebook feats and stuff. The ones they include in advanced race guide use core + ARG feats and stuff, etc. But if you grab an NPC from ARG yet don't allow that book in your campaign, then you'll get NPCs with impossible abilities for your PCs. Same depending on who made that pregen and for what book set.

And yes, without retraining (or level drain or something else silly), I think this is definitely impossible to build.

[Scrooge.]

Yes it's a PFS term, but the question is do the people who sit at the other end of the office from the guys who write Paizo rules think that druids could get natural spell as their level 3 feat, the rest was just for context.

[Taenia]

Actually retraining is allowed in Core according to this blog post.

You just can only retrain into core options.

[dragonhunterq]

It's a mistake. PFS pregens are known to have a few here and there. They should absolutely not be relied on as a guide to legality.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

dragonhunterq wrote:

It's a mistake. PFS pregens are known to have a few here and there. They should absolutely not be relied on as a guide to legality.

That's like saying you can't rely on the Police to keep the peace of the town/city; it's a ridiculous claim, especially when in most cases, that's exactly what they're for.

I'm not saying Paizo employees can't make errors, but it should be errata'd or at least FAQ'd to become correct again with their current rules set.

[dragonhunterq]

PFS scenarios and pregens are so riddled with houserules, quirks and rules errors I would not use it as a rules source.

I like PFS, it performs it's function really well - a little too heavy on the paperwork maybe and a few other foibles I am slowly adjusting too - it's function however is not as a rules source.

Any analogy I could give that would be accurate would not give PFS the respect they are due, but they really are not the police in this scenario.

[Scrooge.]

Taenia wrote:

Actually retraining is allowed in Core according to this blog post.

You just can only retrain into core options.

Good call, thanks.

[Jodokai]

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

That's like saying you can't rely on the Police to keep the peace of the town/city; it's a ridiculous claim, especially when in most cases, that's exactly what they're for.

It's more like saying you can't rely on the police to know every letter of every law ever written...which is pretty accurate. If you look at the Pregens, this isn't the the only or even the most glaring mistake that can be found in their write ups.

And PFS is Paizo.

[kinevon]

Jodokai wrote:

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

That's like saying you can't rely on the Police to keep the peace of the town/city; it's a ridiculous claim, especially when in most cases, that's exactly what they're for.

It's more like saying you can't rely on the police to know every letter of every law ever written...which is pretty accurate. If you look at the Pregens, this isn't the the only or even the most glaring mistake that can be found in their write ups.

And PFS is Paizo.

No, PFS is run by a few Paizo employees, whose responsibility is limited to PFS.

Your statement would be like saying the drive-through window is McDonalds.

PFS people do what they can. So do Paizo's other employees. And, just like any business whose field is in publishing, there will be things that get by the editors and proofreaders.

I have seen typos and bad grammar (on narration, not as character dialogue) in professional books from even some of the large publishers.

Also, and this is something to bear in mind, some of the fundamentals may not be obvious to John Jones, the freelancer doing the write-up for the Barbarian. He writes it up, it looks good, and it slips under the radar that both of the Barbarian's traits are Combat traits, until Brian (you know Brian from KoDT) notices it and brings it up on the boards later.

Sometimes, even after it is out in front of everyone, no one notices for months that the APG pregens were built on only a 15 point buy, instead of a 20 point buy.

[blackbloodtroll]

PFS pregens sometimes break rules, for flavor reasons.

Yoon is a small human.