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I want to make a Wayang Hunter for PFS, and wanted to capitalize on their small size to get a medium mount that can fly. What I want to know is what you guys think benefits more from having a flying mount?
With a lance, I'd be able to freely charge almost regardless of terrain.
With a bow, I'd be able to move around enemy positions to pepper enemies from relatively more safety compared to ground-bound archers, while also getting around whatever cover the enemy might have at ground level.
I am already aware that a flying mount needs to be at a light encumbrance in order to still fly, so I'll be considering that carefully whichever way I decide to go. I'll likely go with a Roc, and just take the +2 Dex and Con at 7th level.
A bow is usually your best bet,
Your mount needs to be lightly encumbered. If you get a lance you will want armor since you are getting into melee range.
Plus bows are OP. Being able to make full round attacks without moving is awesome. The mount it is even better. YTour mount can move and you can still range full round attack with a bow,a melee weapon you can not.
Also if you are stuck without your bird for whatever reason then your lance is much less effective. Your bow is still a valueable weapon off your mont
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So if I went with Archery, I could go with stats like this (after racial bonuses and penalties from Wayang):
STR: 12
DEX: 17
CON: 12
INT: 14
WIS: 13
CHA: 10
I'd have a Roc animal companion with the Bull Animal Focus active on it to boost its strength.
Feats would look like this:
LVL 1: Point Blank
LVL 2 (HUNTER): Precise Shot
LVL 3: Weapon Focus (Shortbow), (Teamwork) Shake It Off
LVL 5: Rapid Shot
LVL 6: (Teamwork) Improved Spell Sharing
LVL 7: Mounted Combat
LVL 9: Clustered Shots (Whatever Teamwork Feat Works)
LVL 11: Manyshot
At levels 4 and 8 I'd raise Dexterity and Wisdom respectively.
The weapon of choice to aim towards is a +1 Holy Adaptive Composite Shortbow, with a spread of different ammunitions to handle various DR.
Gravity Bow and Bull's Strength (in conjunction with the adaptive bow) would be staple spells known to help boost damage.
Skills that'd be focused on would be Perception, Stealth, Ride, Handle Animal, Disable Device, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) and Knowledge (Nature).
that is too high dex.
I would get more str, with a compound bow you will appreciate it.
Infact you could dip three levels in zenarch to speed up your bow feats and give wis to hit with your bow. Then boon companion to catch up your pet
You would want a 13 dex for deadly aim.
'
Your int also is higher than it needs to be if you ask me.
Now these are just optimization suggestions. If you want to be smarter than wise go for.
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The thing with the Wayang is they have a penalty to Wisdom and a bonus to dexterity, so getting it to any great height would mean even more investment for little benefit. Trying to go Zen Archer for Wisdom to Hit would be just about the most ineffective thing I could do.
Boosting strength a little is a good point. Most of my Animal companion usage will be in Ride, so I could perhaps take a minor hit by bringing charisma down to 8, for something like this:
STR: 14
DEX: 16
CON: 12
INT: 12
WIS: 14
CHA: 8
Alternatively, I could go with this instead:
STR: 14
DEX: 16
CON: 12
INT: 10
WIS: 14
CHA: 10
I'm personally inclined to go with the first one, as it'll have less impact on skills overall.
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The GM told me verbatim the other day that "You have the most broken character I've ever seen" with regards to melee hunter. The thing is I didn't break the scenario. I just described my character to the GM and since he's very knowledgeable he instantly saw how well my character could do in an optimal situation.
But to specifically answer your question, my wayang hunter uses a scimitar (keen, but you obviously can't start with that). That's because it works well with Pack Flanking (and obviously Outflank that melee hunters get for free). I'm currently using a variation on my "Lone Wolf Rider" pfs build that I've posted about previously. A lance while mounted (and who uses a lance when not mounted) means you won't be using Outflank so I wouldn't do that. A bow and mounted means you basically have no offensive teamwork feat options.
Just to give an idea, here are all of the feats my lvl 7 wayang hunter has.
Non-teamwork feats
Monstrous Mount (Worg)
Boon Companion
Combat Reflexes
Animal Soul
Combat Expertise
Improved Unarmed Strike
Teamwork feats
Paired Opportunists
Outflank
Pack Flanking
Tandem Trip
Broken Wing Gambit
Precise Strike
Shake it Off
And since you keep asking about ability scores. This is what I use for my melee hunter.
Str 16 - level four and eight increase go here
Dex 14 - (12 +2 racial)
Con 14
Int 14 - (12 +2 racial)
Wis 12 - (14 -2 racial)
Cha 7
I love the amount of skill points per level this yields. Cha 7 is easily made up by the amount of skill points you get to spread around. Hunters don't need offensive spells (just buff you/your pet, or have utility spells available). So a low wisdom is just fine. Hunters get 3rd level spells at level seven, so by then you just need to buy a wisdom headband to be able to have a wisdom high enough for those third level spells (and 4th, and that'll last you through your PFS career). For my character, I bought a dex belt instead of a str belt so that I could have the same number of AoOs as my pet (very important for my build), it also gives me another AC.
Ugh..internet just ate my edit...
Long story short, feel very free to tank charisma. You only need it for handle animal and even with a 7 cha you'll still have a +8 to handle your companion at level 1 if you put one rank into it (which you obviously would) and buy a training harness. On my character I talked about above, I took Animal Affinity as my first level feat (bonus to both Ride and Handle Animal!) which means you won't have to roll at all for Handle Animal (unless the companion is damage then you'll only fail on a 1). When you have enough xp to hit lvl 2, you can swap it out (using PFS's free lvl 1 retraining) for something more useful. In my case, I kept it until level 4 when I no longer needed it and retrained it for Monstrous Mount (which was the point of my character to begin with--to ride a Worg because I think it's awesome).
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Mounted Ranged combat is heavy feat intensive. If the mount moves a lot, you will often get a -4 penalty on ranged attacks. If it runs, that's even worse. The benefit is usually a series of long range attacks and fast movement speed which is usually less needed or not as effective in PFS games. Also, please be careful what you pick to make this possible. A level 1 character with a flying mount is impossible to get due to balance issues.
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@claude
A flying mounted character on low levels can cause imbalance on the table. As a result, there is few options available to take such flying mount. I am not saying he can't take it, I am saying that it might require a lot of additional resources to even make it possible.
Edit: Perhaps this topic would be better of in a PFS community section.
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@claude
A flying mounted character on low levels can cause imbalance on the table. As a result, there is few options available to take such flying mount. I am not saying he can't take it, I am saying that it might require a lot of additional resources to even make it possible.
Edit: Perhaps this topic would be better of in a PFS community section.
No, he's specifically asking about building a character for PFS. So since he's asking about building a character, it belongs in the advice forum. If he had started it specifically in the PFS board, it would have been moved here since he's asking for advice build.
Since he (she?) is specifically asking about PFS, there is nothing stopping him from strapping an exotic saddle onto his flying companion and hopping on the back of it because there aren't any rules (PFS-specific or otherwise) that disallow it. Your second post agrees with this, but your first post was misleading.
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@claude
You are right. It might have been misleading. I am usually bad at explaining stuff over the Internet, especially on forums here where people track every word you say. Suffice to say, that making the concept might be difficult, but not impossible. It also requires a fair rules knowledge on how mounted combat works. All the players I played with so far had fairly little understanding about it.
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The GM told me verbatim the other day that "You have the most broken character I've ever seen" with regards to melee hunter. The thing is I didn't break the scenario. I just described my character to the GM and since he's very knowledgeable he instantly saw how well my character could do in an optimal situation.
But to specifically answer your question, my wayang hunter uses a scimitar (keen, but you obviously can't start with that). That's because it works well with Pack Flanking (and obviously Outflank that melee hunters get for free). I'm currently using a variation on my "Lone Wolf Rider" pfs build that I've posted about previously. A lance while mounted (and who uses a lance when not mounted) means you won't be using Outflank so I wouldn't do that. A bow and mounted means you basically have no offensive teamwork feat options.
Just to give an idea, here are all of the feats my lvl 7 wayang hunter has.
...
I love the amount of skill points per level this yields. Cha 7 is easily made up by the amount of skill points you get to spread around. Hunters don't need offensive spells (just buff you/your pet, or have utility spells available). So a low wisdom is just fine. Hunters get 3rd level spells at level seven, so by then you just need to buy a wisdom headband to be able to have a wisdom high enough for those third level spells (and 4th, and that'll last you through your PFS career). For my character, I bought a dex belt instead of a str belt so that I could have the same number of AoOs...
So you're suggesting I go with a melee hunter, and not bother with the lance and go for a non-reach weapon, so that I can get the most out of the teamwork feats?
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So you're suggesting I go with a melee hunter, and not bother with the lance and go for a non-reach weapon, so that I can get the most out of the teamwork feats?
Yes, that would be my suggestion. I'm biased, though, because I'm practically in love with this build I've came up with and have used a variation of it on two separate characters, though. That isn't to say that a charging character can't be good. They're definitely worthwhile and a charging character will work very well, also. They just won't be able to take full advantage of the hunter's Hunter Tactics ability which is a very powerful ability. HERE is a link to a variation of that's been working for me. The weaknesses for this build are DR (so a high enhancement weapon will counter that) and flying (not much you can do other use Broken Wing Gambit and hope for crits (paired with Paired Opportunists or Outflank and Pack Flanking)). Precise Strike also helps with DR.
If you do go with a lance build, Escape Route will probably be the most useful teamwork feat you can take.
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Yes, that would be my suggestion. I'm biased, though, because I'm practically in love with this build I've came up with and have used a variation of it on two separate characters, though. That isn't to say that a charging character can't be good. They're definitely worthwhile and a charging character will work very well, also. They just won't be able to take full advantage of the hunter's Hunter Tactics ability which is a very powerful ability. HERE is a link to a variation of that's been working for me. The weaknesses for this build are DR (so a high enhancement weapon will counter that) and flying (not much you can do other use Broken Wing Gambit and hope for crits (paired with Paired Opportunists or Outflank and Pack Flanking)). Precise Strike also helps with DR.If you do go with a lance build, Escape Route will probably be the most useful teamwork feat you can take.
I found the Divine Hunter archetype. It's PFS legal and replaces teamwork feats with the potentially more useful domain powers. I think that could end up going a bit better for a lance build.
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I found the Divine Hunter archetype. It's PFS legal and replaces teamwork feats with the potentially more useful domain powers. I think that could end up going a bit better for a lance build.
Yeah, domains can be awesome. However, I personally won't use any archetype that trades away Hunter Tactics because it's a super powerful tool. And while the DR would be a boon for your Animal Companion, since most of your hunter spells will probably be buff spells, the SR will hurt.
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Another good mounted build, is a mix - as mounted is costly.
1-3 hunter
4-cavalier - free team feat or mounted combat.
5-6 sohei- free wheeling charge, spirited charge etc.
7-8 fighter, free mounted combat & skill foxus ride&another feat
9+ hunter again
That's exactly what my hunter looks like. Though I started with 1 cav instead. It gives 2 more hp at first level. Specifically it's
1 cav (free teamwork feat, not sure why you say "or mounted combat" because that's not an option via Tactician)2-4 hunter
5 sohei
6-7 fighter (lore warden) (and you totally don't need skill focus ride)
8 sohei
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I found the Divine Hunter archetype. It's PFS legal and replaces teamwork feats with the potentially more useful domain powers. I think that could end up going a bit better for a lance build.Yeah, domains can be awesome. However, I personally won't use any archetype that trades away Hunter Tactics because it's a super powerful tool. And while the DR would be a boon for your Animal Companion, since most of your hunter spells will probably be buff spells, the SR will hurt.
I'd mostly be buffing myself, and couldn't the animal companion lower its SR as a standard action? It'd make pre-buffing more important to be able to do it at leisure. Losing the teamwork feats hurts, yes but like you said, the teamwork feats wouldn't help me with a lance build, while I can get some more benefits with the proper domain selection.
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I'm Bias to a Lance =) just because I like the look on a DMs face when you 1 shot everything for the first 7 Levels.
The last time I tried mounted lance, the cellings of caves and dungeons got a lot smaller ^^Seriously, PFS very often does not state height of cellings, so its GM fiat. And charging, you need space to wheel. I suggest archer.
I always ask the DM: "So I can Assume the Ceiling is 10-15ft high unless otherwise stated?" I tend to get a yes answer...then I flop out my Gecko.
Usually the Description of the room does offer some changes "High Vaulted Ceilings" and such...but that is when I usually stick to walls or have the team open lanes for me on those rare occasions I can not ride the wall or ceiling. But once I got Wheeling Charge I haven't had issue since.
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I'd mostly be buffing myself, and couldn't the animal companion lower its SR as a standard action? It'd make pre-buffing more important to be able to do it at leisure.
Yes, but if it needs healed, or if you want to apply something thematic (or just a buff with a short duration) such as Acid Maw then you're out of luck. If you're going to be riding a ground mount (you're not, but others seeing this will want it) then Cheetah's Sprint is an absolute must.
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for a hunter , that both lack a damage booster (smite favorite enemy etc) and no feats - mounted combat is a high end game thing. or... you give up essentials like pack flanking.
Oh I agree Hunter tends to be a bad Lancer class because lack of Damage boosters to be Multiplied by Spirited Charge.
But I disagree with the High End Game for a lancer. Hardly ever does it pay off to be a lancer in the high end game. Most Lancers have really good damage 1-13 but once the Melee Guy gets 3 attacks and a haste the Melee builds tend to start pulling ahead in damage. And only the Cavalier and Paladin can keep Lancing viable 13+ as the smite and Challenge ability is the Core of their damage source. All other classes start to fall behind the Curb.
But in PFS where you rarely play past level 12 the lancer is very nice. One of the major benefits is only resolving DR against a single blow unlike the typical for each attack. It really helps prior to special materials and/or Alignment DR.
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1.5 Str (as 2 handed) + Weapon Enhancement Bonus + Damage Feats (Like Power Attack, Horn of Cyrosphinx, Big Game hunter, Risky Striker, Arcane Strike) + Static Abilities (Like Smite, Favored Enemy, Challenge)
Basically everything you would Multiply on a Critical hit is Multiplied on the spirited charge.
Precision damage is NOT multiplied on a Critical or a Spirited charge.
Also I highly recommend in PFS Rhino Hide for any lancer build. Since you can use a Lance 1 handed and get 1.5 STR you can also use a shield to help close the gap of Medium armor. But that +2d6 per charge is very nice bonus over the typical Mithral Armor.
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1.5 Str (as 2 handed) + Weapon Enhancement Bonus + Damage Feats (Like Power Attack, Horn of Cyrosphinx, Big Game hunter, Risky Striker, Arcane Strike) + Static Abilities (Like Smite, Favored Enemy, Challenge)
Basically everything you would Multiply on a Critical hit is Multiplied on the spirited charge.
Precision damage is NOT multiplied on a Critical or a Spirited charge.
Also I highly recommend in PFS Rhino Hide for any lancer build. Since you can use a Lance 1 handed and get 1.5 STR you can also use a shield to help close the gap of Medium armor. But that +2d6 per charge is very nice bonus over the typical Mithral Armor.
The shield is a bonus because it also allows you to threaten adjacent squares.
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As does the Animal Companion Threaten =P
But Yes the Shield is a very nice little bonus to have.
On my Build I put Bodyguard on my mount so it can recover the -2 from charging. The Mount and Rider protect each other Through the Combo of Bodyguard and Mounted Combat.
The only thing that sucks is getting Drug off your mount via a Grapple check....as a small race it is very difficult to react to and one of the Weak points of the build...but no matter what you build there will always be a weakness...its just best try and kill them and if you didn't do it in 1 hit they are barely clinging to life and hope your mount or other team mates kill it before it pins and proceeds to pop you like a pimple.
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1.5 Str (as 2 handed) + Weapon Enhancement Bonus + Damage Feats (Like Power Attack, Horn of Cyrosphinx, Big Game hunter, Risky Striker, Arcane Strike) + Static Abilities (Like Smite, Favored Enemy, Challenge)
Basically everything you would Multiply on a Critical hit is Multiplied on the spirited charge.
Precision damage is NOT multiplied on a Critical or a Spirited charge.
Also I highly recommend in PFS Rhino Hide for any lancer build. Since you can use a Lance 1 handed and get 1.5 STR you can also use a shield to help close the gap of Medium armor. But that +2d6 per charge is very nice bonus over the typical Mithral Armor.
I thought that when using the lance one-handed on a mount, you only get 1.0 STR.
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I thought that when using the lance one-handed on a mount, you only get 1.0 STR
I first thought the same thing but you receive 1.5 Str while using a Lance mounted even using 1 hand on the lance.
The Rules for Mounted combat are very spread out through multiple books. Which makes it very unclear at times. It took me lots of time hunting down rulings and such to work out my mounted combat lancer. (and there is a difference in Mounted style too) You have a Lancer, Archer....of course...then you have the Over Run/Trampler build which requires a Large+ mount to accomplish.
But I assure you Ms. Pleiades you do get 1.5 for Lancing as well as x2 damage from the Lance. Lancer is a very damage heavy build. It is shocking how good it is. And it is shocking How many Trolls will see it and then try and block your charge lane every chance they get because they feel outshined. I've had it happen before....the saving grace is they can't fly/spider climb to block all my angles of attacks.
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cap. Furian : hunter get no bonus feats, so if you are small.
1-mounted combat
3-power attack
5-ride by attack
7-spirited charge
9-wheeling charge
by the time you can really charge - there is less and less of a point to be doing that.
hence - hunter arent a great chargers.Rangers get both a damage booster (favorite emeny) and 3 free feats.
cavaliers get 3-5 free feats , smite and the mount's str as bonus to damage (WOW) .
they are the best chargers of the game.hunters are team feat gods. they are great with the AC around them and almost futile when alone - unless 1 cavalier dip to share the team feat around.
their spells are amazing - for buffs and such - and their super AC holds well all the way to the late 20's.they are fun - not supreme - but fun to play with TON of AOO.
I completely Agree Caviliers make some of the best chargers.
I have a Hunter AoO build with a Reach weapon and a Giant Mantis AC with it's Lunge ability. Lots of Area Denile and lots of AoO in that area. Like a shreader with Pack Flanking, Broken Wing, and other Teamwork feats. I do believe that is where the hunter truely shines...in melee style combat with the Animal Companion tearing things up. Teamwork feats tend to favor Melee choices over ranged. But they are in no way great Lancers.
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I found the Beastmaster archetype for the ranger. By Level 4 they'd still be able to have a flying companion that can be buffed up with Boon Companion. They'd have better to-hit and damage, and have a bit more feat support. The saves stay the same, and my character would have more health as well. I lose a bit of spellcasting, but the spell-casting was going to be for buffing anyway, and the better BAB and Favored Enemy.
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Lunge doesnt add reach, only allow to attack better. So- it wont add more aoo...
This I know...I'm not incompetent...It does only help on his regular attacks though...not to mention Sudden strike helping his surprise round. Snagging someone into a grapple with lunge is a very nice surprise on a huge/large animal.
I just mentioned Lunge because it is a very nice ability the Mantis gets that sets it apart as a nice Vermin Animal Companion. I'm just sad about the nerf to Verminous hunter's Worm ability and Spirit's Gift. I miss the DR/5 Ada + Fast healing level 1.