Well, I made a mammoth rider and now I need help with mounted combat rules. Please tell me if I'm doing something wrong in the following scenario.
For the sake of simplicity lets say my character is mounted on his mammoth (10ft reach), has his weapon drawn (glaive-guisarme (has reach)), the terrain is not difficult, and there is a lone goblin 15ft in front of him.
1. The Mount makes a charge action (my character can still make a move equivalent action), giving both the mount and character a +2 attack bonus and -2 AC.
2. With a normal charge, the mount and character would both make one attack using the +2 attack bonus.
3. If I chose to overrun the goblin as part of the charge action (mount has imp. overrun and charge through), would the mount lose its attack to use overrun while my character still gets his attack?
4. My character has the Trample Feat and therefore the mount makes one hoof attack with overrun. This makes it seem like the mount does indeed sacrifice its charge attack to make the overrun attempt.
5. If there were two goblins, one directly in front of the other, would the Charge Through Feat would allow me to make an overrun attempt on both assuming I passed the overrun on the goblin in front?
Trample(Ex) Rules
1. The mount's Trample(Ex) does not take effect during an overrun as Trample(Ex) can't be used as part of a charge.
2. If there were three goblins in a line next to each other, Trample(Ex) would affect all three as the mammoth is huge sized.
Overrun and Charge will not work together per RAW. Overrun requires its own Standard Action to perform (as well as Movement that Overrun does not, in itself, grant, which requires a Move Action usually); it cannot be used in place of an Attack. This is no different than trying to Grapple on a Charge.
Charging is its own separate Full-Round Action. You need 2 rounds worth of Actions in the same turn in order to actually "Charge" with an Overrun, and even that, by RAW, does not work.
The Trample Extraordinary Monster Rules don't work either, since by RAW, you make an Overrun maneuver as a Full-Round Action (meaning you can't Charge), and the Overrun Maneuver itself does not allow you to move any squares. So you would be Trampling your own squares that you occupy. Meaning once again, RAW stumps you.
Of course, if you want to talk RAI, then you would spend a Full-Round Action to move up to twice your speed and in place of the attack you get from Charging, you perform the Overrun. Just remember that by RAW, your Trample/Overrun stuff would not work.
Anyway, assuming we stick with RAI (as that's what most GMs would probably do, because broken abilities and maneuvers kind of suck), how the scenario would go down, is that your mount would use Trample, which is the Overrun maneuver as a Full-Round Action. Goblins get a save for Half (they'd probably fail). Your PC would not receive the Charge bonuses/penalties, nor would he be constricted to those rules.
What you can do with this, is perform the Trample, and then put yourself in position to Full-Attack with the Lance.
If you were just going to go kill the single goblin by himself (the poor goblin...), you would be too close to Charge. Re-reading the Charge rules for this excerpt here:
You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent.
You would have to be 20 feet away from the target for that to work, as you would be required to attack from the farthest distance away possible. (Ironically enough, this means that GMs using monsters with multiple forms of reach, would only get one attack, even if they possess the likes of Pounce.)
In regards to the Charge Through feat, all that really allows you to do is Overrun one creature for free without having to worry about if you can charge or not. Which can be worth a feat, but by RAI it's not as great as it looks. (By RAW, you have to have it if you want to Overrun as part of a Charge, and even then it only affects one creature which kind of sucks.)
Hope that helps!
Yeah, RAI will be fine. I knew the mounted combat rules were a mess, but not THIS bad...
Thanks a lot!
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overun IS MADE as part of a charge
"
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge,
"
And? You spend a Full-Round Action to Charge. You must still spend a Standard Action to perform the Overrun as part of a Charge. Let's take out the "during your move or" part, as that's irrelevant to the argument:
As a standard action, takenduring your move oras part of a charge,
As you can see here, the rules clearly show you must take the Standard Action as part of the Full-Round Action you spend Charging; which is normally physically impossible, which means the rules implode upon themselves.
The Charge Through feat allows you to Overrun as a Free Action when you Charge, but it only goes for 1 creature.
Now do you see why the Overrun rules are shot? It is because of this that GMs must use RAI to actually make it work, and their RAI on the matter isn't exactly consistent with themselves, so...
?
overun IS MADE as part of a charge
"
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge,
"And? You spend a Full-Round Action to Charge. You must still spend a Standard Action to perform the Overrun as part of a Charge. Let's take out the "during your move or" part, as that's irrelevant to the argument:
As a standard action, takenduring your move oras part of a charge,As you can see here, the rules clearly show you must take the Standard Action as part of the Full-Round Action you spend Charging; which is normally physically impossible, which means the rules implode upon themselves.
The Charge Through feat allows you to Overrun as a Free Action when you Charge, but it only goes for 1 creature.
Now do you see why the Overrun rules are shot? It is because of this that GMs must use RAI to actually make it work, and their RAI on the matter isn't exactly consistent with themselves, so...
Overrun works fine as part of a charge. A Combat Maneuver roll is, explicitly, a type of attack roll. A charge is a full round action that allows for an attack at the end (note that an attack is also a standard action). To overrun during a charge, you simply replace the attack you would normally take at the end of your charge with an overrun combat maneuver. This is both RAW and RAI.
Overrun works fine as part of a charge. A Combat Maneuver roll is, explicitly, a type of attack roll. A charge is a full round action that allows for an attack at the end (note that an attack is also a standard action). To overrun during a charge, you simply replace the attack you would normally take at the end of your charge with an overrun combat maneuver. This is both RAW and RAI.?
overun IS MADE as part of a charge
"
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge,
"And? You spend a Full-Round Action to Charge. You must still spend a Standard Action to perform the Overrun as part of a Charge. Let's take out the "during your move or" part, as that's irrelevant to the argument:
As a standard action, takenduring your move oras part of a charge,As you can see here, the rules clearly show you must take the Standard Action as part of the Full-Round Action you spend Charging; which is normally physically impossible, which means the rules implode upon themselves.
The Charge Through feat allows you to Overrun as a Free Action when you Charge, but it only goes for 1 creature.
Now do you see why the Overrun rules are shot? It is because of this that GMs must use RAI to actually make it work, and their RAI on the matter isn't exactly consistent with themselves, so...
So then I should be able to perform a Grapple when I charge, according to what you say. Except you would say it's not. Why? Because that's a Standard Action to perform.
The only wording that Overrun states that would make it any different from Grapple is that it specifically cites Charge. That's it. There is otherwise zero difference between the two.
Now, Bull Rush actually gives explicit language in comparison to Overrun. Let's compare, shall we?
You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack.
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.
I see the bolded part in Bull Rush specifically states you exchange the attack you make during a Charge for the combat maneuver. I don't see any such language in the Overrun section. So, I don't know where you're coming up with this "replaces the attack" argument, because RAW doesn't support that, whatsoever.
So then I should be able to perform a Grapple when I charge, according to what you say. Except you would say it's not. Why? Because that's a Standard Action to perform.
The only wording that Overrun states that would make it any different from Grapple is that it specifically cites Charge. That's it. There is otherwise zero difference between the two.
Now, Bull Rush actually gives explicit language in comparison to Overrun. Let's compare, shall we?
Bull Rush wrote:
You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack.Overrun wrote:
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.I see the bolded part in Bull Rush specifically states you exchange the attack you make during a Charge for the combat maneuver. I don't see any such language in the Overrun section. So, I don't know where you're coming up with this "replaces the attack" argument, because RAW doesn't support that, whatsoever.
You're being excessively nitpicky and creating a problem where there isn't one. The text of overrun specifically states that it can be used as part of a charge.
That's it. That's the rule. Specific trumps general. Charge is generally a Full Round Action but in the specific case of using overrun you can use it during a charge.
If you really want to argue that it isn't used in place of an attack then it becomes a free action and you still get an attack at the end. This is, of course, nonsense because why would the charge through feat exist if you could just do that anyway?
So then I should be able to perform a Grapple when I charge, according to what you say. Except you would say it's not. Why? Because that's a Standard Action to perform.
The only wording that Overrun states that would make it any different from Grapple is that it specifically cites Charge. That's it. There is otherwise zero difference between the two.
Now, Bull Rush actually gives explicit language in comparison to Overrun. Let's compare, shall we?
Bull Rush wrote:
You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack.Overrun wrote:
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.I see the bolded part in Bull Rush specifically states you exchange the attack you make during a Charge for the combat maneuver. I don't see any such language in the Overrun section. So, I don't know where you're coming up with this "replaces the attack" argument, because RAW doesn't support that, whatsoever.
You're being excessively nitpicky and creating a problem where there isn't one. The text of overrun specifically states that it can be used as part of a charge.
That's it. That's the rule. Specific trumps general. Charge is generally a Full Round Action but in the specific case of using overrun you can use it during a charge.
If you really want to argue that it isn't used in place of an attack then it becomes a free action and you still get an attack at the end. This is, of course, nonsense because why would the charge through feat exist if you could just do that anyway?
Basically everything you just said it wrong, as far as the rules go. You are describing what I find to be perfectly reasonable house rules. Those are not, however, the rules in the book, and that's pretty much what this forum is all about.
For the record, basically everything about Mounted Combat needs to be houseruled to work, in it's current state. If there are any objectively correct RAW interpretations to several of the feats (I'm looking at your Ride by Attack), it's "this feat effectively provides no benefit."
But lets walk through the action economy of normal charging.
My turn begins. I have 1 Standard action, 1 Move action, and 1 swift action. My weapon is in my hand and I am mounted.
I decide to charge valid charge target x. This is a full round action. Both my mount and I only have a swift action left.
I enter melee range with the target. I get to make an attack because the charge rules say I do. Roll to hit. Barring any swift or free actions, my turn is over.
Now with overrun.
My turn begins. I have 1 Standard action, 1 Move action, and 1 swift action. My weapon is in my hand and I am mounted.
I decide to charge valid charge target x. This is a full round action. Both my mount and I only have a swift action left.
My mount attempts to overrun. The GM interrupts me and says "Hold on, you only have a swift action left. You can't spend a standard action you don't have."
"AH!" I say, "But I can make a Overrun attempt during a charge! It says so right in the overrun rules!"
"Yes," says my GM, "But it also says that attempt costs a standard action. Your mount doesn't have one left. Therefore, action economy precludes you from using that maneuver as part of a charge."
"That seems silly, but you the GM," I concede. "Perhaps after this session we can discuss house ruling this?"
"That's fine," the GM replies. "For now, lets keep the game moving."
You seem to be under the impression the the rules are obligated to work. I'm sorry to say that just isn't true. You can't overrun at the end of a charge, even though overrun says you can, because overrun also says it's a standard action to attempt. To use your own words, "That's it. That's the rule." This is not a case of specific trumping general, because the SAME SENTENCE dictates the action economy. It's an improperly worded rule that breaks itself. It happens.
You seem to be under the impression the the rules are obligated to work. I'm sorry to say that just isn't true. You can't overrun at the end of a charge, even though overrun says you can, because overrun also says it's a standard action to attempt. To use your own words, "That's it. That's the rule." This is not a case of specific trumping general, because the SAME SENTENCE dictates the action economy. It's an improperly worded rule that breaks itself. It happens.
There are plenty of rules in this game that don't work. This isn't one of them.
Look at chargeCharging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action.
Whereas,
When performing a combat maneuver, you must use an action appropriate to the maneuver you are attempting to perform. While many combat maneuvers can be performed as part of an attack action, full-attack action, or attack of opportunity (in place of a melee attack), others require a specific action.
...
Combat maneuvers are attack rolls.
And Finally, Overrun
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.
Combat Maneuvers are attacks. Charge is a full round action that allows for an attack. Overrun is a combat maneuver (and therefore an attack). Overrun can be used as a standard action during your move OR it can be used as part of a charge action.
There's a reason that in the dozens of threads about this article any official response is "Answered in FAQ," "No Reply Required," or just outright ignored.
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action.Whereas,
When performing a combat maneuver, you must use an action appropriate to the maneuver you are attempting to perform. While many combat maneuvers can be performed as part of an attack action, full-attack action, or attack of opportunity (in place of a melee attack), others require a specific action.
...
Combat maneuvers are attack rolls.
So? Are you actually trying to claim that all attack rolls are attacks and can therefore be taken at the end of a charge? I suggest you finish reading the charge rules.
After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.A charging character gets a +2 bonus on combat maneuver attack rolls made to bull rush an opponent.
The only reason Overrun is even an option is because OVERRUN says it is. The charge rule says "single melee attack." Heck, the charge rules don't actually say you can bullrush as part of a charge, just what happens if you somehow do. Of course, the rules for Bullrush are quite clear.
And Finally, Overrun
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.Combat Maneuvers are attacks. Charge is a full round action that allows for an attack. Overrun is a combat maneuver (and therefore an attack). Overrun can be used as a standard action during your move OR it can be used as part of a charge action.
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.
That's not how parsing English works. Commas separate clauses. We have the first clause "As a standard action," which tells us the action economy, and the second clause "taken during your move or as part of a charge," which tells us when you can take the action. The sentence does not read "As a standard action taken during your move, or as part of a charge." Moving that comma four words drastically changes the meaning of the sentence. An Overrun is a standard action. Always. That's what this rule says. It's a standard action that can either be taken during a move or as part of a charge. Except it can't be used during a charge, because you don't have a standard action to use it with. It wouldn't be much of a stretch from your interpretation to say "Overrun is a standard action OR used during a move action OR as part of a charge." You can't just move commas however you wish.
also that last quote says "Charge" where you meant "Overrun." I'm assuming that was an honest mistake.
There's a reason that in the dozens of threads about this article any official response is "Answered in FAQ," "No Reply Required," or just outright ignored.
Because, for once, the intent is clear. You are clearly SUPPOSED to be able to use overrun in place of your single melee attack during a charge. That isn't the point. The difference is when I allow players to overrun after a charge, I know I'm changing the rules to be inline with intent. To be specific, I change the wording as I suggest further up this response, making overrun a standard action only when being used on a move action, and replacing the charge attack on a charge. If you (the general you, not anyone specific) twist wordings to force the RAW to fit, you may allow unintended consequences through.
There is no way to make the written rules fit charging overruns without breaking action economy, or allowing everyone to move commas around ability descriptions however they wish. The RAW simply doesn't support actually USING an overrun during a charge, whatever the RAI was (and it pretty clearly was to allow it). The action economy precludes it.
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So then I should be able to perform a Grapple when I charge, according to what you say. Except you would say it's not. Why? Because that's a Standard Action to perform.
The only wording that Overrun states that would make it any different from Grapple is that it specifically cites Charge. That's it. There is otherwise zero difference between the two.
Now, Bull Rush actually gives explicit language in comparison to Overrun. Let's compare, shall we?
Bull Rush wrote:
You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack.Overrun wrote:
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.I see the bolded part in Bull Rush specifically states you exchange the attack you make during a Charge for the combat maneuver. I don't see any such language in the Overrun section. So, I don't know where you're coming up with this "replaces the attack" argument, because RAW doesn't support that, whatsoever.
You're being excessively nitpicky and creating a problem where there isn't one. The text of overrun specifically states that it can be used as part of a charge as a standard action.
That's it. That's the rule. Specific trumps general. Charge is generally a Full Round Action but in the specific case of using overrun you can use it during a charge.
If you really want to argue that it isn't used in place of an attack then it becomes a free action and you still get an attack at the end. This is, of course, nonsense because why would the charge through feat exist if you could just do that anyway?
First off, FTFY.
Second off, being nitpicky is very important. I don't care if it's "Rules Lawyering," or what have you, it's important because the devil is in the details. Just being a part of something does not make it able to do so. You can't Grapple as part of a Charge, and yet according to your arguments, they can. Except not, because Grapple is specifically a Standard Action to perform, just like how Overrun is specifically a Standard Action to perform, which can be taken as part of movement (which, by the way, Overrun doesn't grant you any per RAW), or as part of a Charge. There is no language that says you forgo the actions required to perform it, whereas in Bull Rush, there is language that clearly states you forgo the attack from Charging to perform the maneuver.
To quote you: Specific Trumps General. Bull Rush specifically states it can be used with a Charge, and has the proper parsing to do that. Overrun doesn't. If it did, we wouldn't have this RAW V.S. RAI discussion.
And I am very aware as to how the RAI for this is supposed to work. It's the same reason why I stated why RAW, it doesn't work, and what the RAI is supposed to be, and that he gets this clarified with the GM, so as to actually have fun with the build, instead of being surprised by the GM, and falling flat upon his face.
But when you're sitting there and saying that there is no problem with the RAW, when there are so many things that fail upon itself, that's a whole different story.
But the OP says his mount has Charge Through:
"Benefit: When making a charge, you can attempt to overrun one creature in the path of the charge as a free action. If you successfully overrun that creature, you can complete the charge. If the overrun is unsuccessful, the charge ends in the space directly in front of that creature.
Normal: You must have a clear path toward the target of your charge."
This feat explicitly allows you to overrun a target when you are charging a second target. So the particular argument about whether you can overrun as a charge is not actually applicable in this case. Why don't you start a completely different thread on that question and leave this one to answering the OP's actual questions?
To the OP:
I don't see anything in the rules about overrunning multiple targets (like there is in the Bull Rush rules). I don't think you can do it.
Regarding #3:
I don't believe you get to make an attack while your mount is using Charge Through, because your round is already dedicated to the charge. Now, if your mount picks up Greater Overrun, you could take an AoO if the target falls prone.
#4 is a bit tricky:
It says "when you make an overrun attempt while mounted", not "when your mount makes an overrun attempt". The problem I see here is that your mount has Charge Through and you do not.
Using Charge Through, your mount would be charging target #2 and overrunning target #1. In order to use Trample, you need to be overrunning target #1 also. In that case, I would say that you could forgo your charge attack on target #2 in order to overrun overrun target #1. That would give your mount a free single attack on target #1 (from trample) while it goes on to attack target #2 at the end of its charge.
I don't think that's the best course of action for you, actually, but that's how I would rule it.
As always, ask your GM. Mounted Combat rules are very confusing, and everyone interprets them differently.
That is just a misplaced comma isn't it.
taken as a standard action taken during your move, or as part of a charge...
fixes it perfectly. Simple and sensible and works near as I can tell.
That is just a misplaced comma isn't it.
taken as a standard action taken during your move, or as part of a charge...fixes it perfectly. Simple and sensible and works near as I can tell.
Incorrect again. That's not the RAW. From the PRD:
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.
The key reason as to why this doesn't work, per RAW, is because of a failure to recognize the lack of proper parsing in regards to what the rules allow for a player to accomplish in a turn. Without some sort of other ability, you could not spend a Full-Round Action to Charge and a Standard Action to perform the maneuver. The comma adjustment would not really fix it, because it does nothing to denote the changing of action economy. It would still take a Standard Action to perform, even as part of a Charge.
There are other reasons, but that's the biggest concern.
Here's the RAI of it:
As a standard action taken during your movement, or as part of a charge in place of the attack, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.
Since Bull Rush uses the bolded language and functions just fine, I don't see a reason as to why you can't do that here.