Spell bonuses and grappling.

[Straph]

Is grappling someone a melee attack?

Is grappling someone not an attack at all but rather a combat maneuver that only requires a attack roll for the purpose of determining success?

Since CMB excludes any miscellaneous bonuses.

Combat Maneuver Bonus

Each character and creature has a Combat Maneuver Bonus (or CMB) that represents its skill at performing combat maneuvers. A creature's CMB is determined using the following formula:

CMB = Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier

Special Size Modifier

Creatures that are size Tiny or smaller use their Dexterity modifier in place of their Strength modifier to determine their CMB. The special size modifier for a creature's Combat Maneuver Bonus is as follows:

Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Medium +0, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8.

Some feats and abilities grant a bonus to your CMB when performing specific maneuvers.

While CMD allows for miscellaneous bonuses.

Combat Maneuver Defense

Each character and creature has a Combat Maneuver Defense (or CMD) that represents its ability to resist combat maneuvers. A creature's CMD is determined using the following formula:

CMD = 10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier + miscellaneous modifiers

Special Size Modifier

The special size modifier for a creature's Combat Maneuver Defense is as follows:

Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Medium +0, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8.

Some feats and abilities grant a bonus to your CMD when resisting specific maneuvers.

Miscellaneous Modifiers

A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD. A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD.

Does that mean spells that add bonuses to attack rolls don't affect CMB (specifically for grapple).

I ask this as Sean Reynolds specifically clarified this only for disarm, trip, and sunder.

http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lcom&page=2?Combat-Maneuvers-and-W eapon-Special-Features#discuss

I have a brawler at level 5 with a CMB of 19, this could get up to 24 if spells are allowed into CMB as well. Pretty out there I think as the highest CMD is 26 for CR5 monsters.

[Maezer]

CMB doesn't exclude other bonuses. If your bonus covers all attack rolls it will generally apply.

Pathfinder Core Rulebook wrote:

When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver,
make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your
normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently
have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects.
These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or
attack used to perform the maneuver.

[Straph]

Maezer wrote:

CMB doesn't exclude other bonuses. If your bonus covers all attack rolls it will generally apply.

Pathfinder Core Rulebook wrote:

When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver,
make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your
normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently
have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects.
These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or
attack used to perform the maneuver.

Sean Reynolds states that is not the purpose of the second line in that rule per the link I posted. Go read that first before replying to this please.

[Jeff Merola]

What spell are you talking about? True Strike works, for instance, because it's a flat bonus to attacks. Magic Weapon wouldn't, unless you're using a Grapple weapon.

[CampinCarl9127]

There are a number of combat maneuvers that can be made in place of attacks. Grapple is not one of them. It is strictly a combat maneuver check. Look under weapon focus and weapon specialization, because they specifically call out grapple as a choice for the feat as opposed to an unarmed strike.

So the second line of your post is the correct interpretation. However, you would need to provide the actual spell, otherwise we can't give you a definitive ruling (blanket statements are bad).

Also, your post could look far neater if you followed the formatting of the boards, both to make distinctions on what is a quote and the ability to hyperlink.

[Straph]

Yeah I'm still kind of new to posting so my formatting is probably an eye sore for anyone. My bad.

So does that mean spell buffs like prayer, and bless don't affect grapple checks?

[CampinCarl9127]

It's alright. I would have responded quicker but I had to make sure what was actual rules text and what was part of your post.

But if you give us the spells in question than we can give you a more definitive answer.

[Straph]

I edit my post by mistake. Bless, and prayer for example give a bonus to attack rolls. However there is no rule I could find that allows spells to affect CMB.

[Jeff Merola]

Both Bless and Prayer add a generic bonus to attacks rolls. Maneuvers use attack rolls. They work fine, using the ruling already quoted. SKR's post doesn't say what you think it says.

[Straph]

So I can also add in a paladin's smite bonus? It's a generic bonus to attack rolls.

[LazarX]

Straph wrote:

Is grappling someone a melee attack?

Is grappling someone not an attack at all but rather a combat maneuver that only requires a attack roll for the purpose of determining success?

.

It's a combat maneuver that requires a combat maneuver roll.

[Jeff Merola]

Straph wrote:

So I can also add in a paladin's smite bonus? It's a generic bonus to attack rolls.

I believe so, yes.

[Straph]

Then why isn't this stated in the discription of CMB? Yet those bonuses are stated in CMD? It's a contradiction to what you just said. CMB as RAW doesn't allow any other bonuses that don't specifically state adds bonus to CMB, or that specific maneuver. I've listed it above in my question if you'd like to read that again.

[Jeff Merola]

There's absolutely zero contradiction. CMD lists all those things because it's not Armor Class, but some bonuses to AC add to it anyway. Combat Maneuvers are attack rolls, so anything that adds to attack rolls (barring things that only add to specific uses that aren't the maneuver in question) adds to it.

[SlimGauge]

PRD wrote:

When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver.

This statement isn't enough ?

[Straph]

You're only using the attack roll for the purpose of rolling a d20. It's not an actual attack. It's a combat maneuver. Since CMB and combat maneuvers make an exception to the rule by negative any attack bonus. You wouldn't add any spell bonuses to the CMB, or combat maneuver check. Unless a feat, or ability state to do so.

Attack Roll

An attack roll represents your attempt to strike your opponent on your turn in a round. When you make an attack roll, you roll a d20 and add your attack bonus. (Other modifiers may also apply to this roll.) If your result equals or beats the target's Armor Class, you hit and deal damage.

Though I'm still not sure if that is the case or not. Many of my questions have gone unanswered.

[Straph]

SlimGauge wrote:

PRD wrote:

When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver.

This statement isn't enough ?

No as the second sentence doesn't mean what you think it means. If you read the whole post I've stated that three times now.

[blackbloodtroll]

It is still an attack roll, counts as an attack roll, and anything that applies penalties or bonuses to attack rolls, apply to it.

I don't know how anyone can make that any clearer.

[Jeff Merola]

Straph wrote:

You're only using the attack roll for the purpose of rolling a d20. It's not an actual attack.

Uhh:

Combat wrote:

Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.

Straph wrote:

No as the second sentence doesn't mean what you think it means. If you read the whole post I've stated that three times now.

First, you're being very rude. Second, that line doesn't mean what you think it means. He doesn't say that it only applies to disarm, trip, and sunder, he says that it applies to combat maneuvers that occur as riders. "X means that Y happens" is not the same as "X only means Y happens".

Also developer posts are only official rulings if they're in the FAQ or directly in a Blog post itself.

[CampinCarl9127]

Well, I was going to say something, but the other posters above me have already said everything I would have and more. I don't know how else to put it.