Unchained Monk and Removing Iterative Attacks

[GIJoe]

Sorry if this has been addressed somewhere else, but I did not find a topic on this anywhere. I'm a bit fuzzy on how the combination of these two things work together in the Unchained rule variants. I understand how the removal of iterative attacks works with regular attacks, twf, and natural attacks, but where does the unchained monk fall in all of this? Given that their flurry of blows all function off of their highest BAB, as well as the extra attack from using a ki point, and it gets even crazier with Medusa's Wrath triggering. Exactly how do all of these attacks fit in?

[Gary Bush]

I don't think it is given that all flurry of blows function off the highest BAB. Flurry only says that the extra attack is at highest BAB. Iterative attacks granted by a higher levels is at the BAB stated in the table.

I have an 8th level unchained monk. I make 3 attacks during a flurry. Two are at my highest BAB (which is +8) and one that is at +3. If I expend a ki point, I get another attack at my highest BAB.

Medusa's Wrath would only add 2 more attacks at highest BAB, not two attacks for each unarmed strike. And that is only against a specific type of opponent.

Seems pretty straight forward to me...

[GIJoe]

That is using normal rules for attacking. What I'm having trouble understanding is how flurry attacks and ki attacks function using the REMOVAL of iterative attack rules variant. This variant involves rolling a d20 one time for ALL of your attacks. By every 5 which you exceed the enemy's AC you land another hit. So if monster has AC 20 and you have an attack bonus of +15 and roll a 10 you hit a AC 25. AC 20 = 1 hit, AC 25 = 2 hits. If you managed to roll a 15 and hit AC 30 then that'd be 3 hits. Likewise if you only hit a 23, it'd only be 1 hit. Using the rules for twf, you use the lower attack bonus of your two weapons and for each "hit" you roll the damage for both weapons as if you struck with the mh and oh. The rules are pretty straightforward until you get to monks. Part of me is assuming you use the rules for haste/extra attacks, but if that's the case then these rules SEVERELY gimp the monk. Was just hoping to get some clarification on this or see what others thought before my game this weekend. If monk flurry attacks and ki attacks follow the same rules for haste under the removal of iterative attack variant rules, then I'll be brewing up my own houserule for it that doesn't penalize monks so harshly.

[Gary Bush]

Ahhh. I understand now. I play PFS and that rules variant is not used there (or I have never seen it used...)

Sorry I am not more helpful.

[Kazaan]

Strictly speaking, you just add one more to your Maximum Hits for each extra attack. So a lvl 8 UC Monk spending 1 ki point would normally get 3 attacks at +8 BAB and one at +3. But using "removing iterative attacks" rules, he is just treated as if he had 4 iterative attacks and would need to beat AC by 15 for all of them to land. If you want to modify it, I'd suggest only using the Remove Iterative rules for actual iterative attacks and rolling separately for additional attacks such as from Haste, Flurry, Ki pool, etc.

[Shiroi]

Actually I'd just say if you pass ac by less than 5, you hit with all of your full BAB attacks. For every 5 over target your roll is, get an extra iterative attack, up to your maximum number of actual iterative attacks.

The idea behind the single roll is to basically make the roll, and whichever hit or hits are able to land with that roll get through. Like saying instead of rolling 5d20, one per attack, I'll just roll one and use the result 5 times.

[Kazaan]

Shiroi wrote:

Actually I'd just say if you pass ac by less than 5, you hit with all of your full BAB attacks. For every 5 over target your roll is, get an extra iterative attack, up to your maximum number of actual iterative attacks.

The idea behind the single roll is to basically make the roll, and whichever hit or hits are able to land with that roll get through. Like saying instead of rolling 5d20, one per attack, I'll just roll one and use the result 5 times.

That would result in an unbalanced system for a single roll to grant (or deny) all full-BAB attacks. The concept is to "speed up" the turn by minimizing rolls, but not at the expense of severely unbalancing the system. If you really want to use a houserule, it's best not to take it to excess. After all, it's removing iterative attacks; extra attacks from sources other than BAB aren't iterative attacks.

[GIJoe]

Since it's a playtest game I'm going to try a few different options, all of which are houseruled to not completely screw our monk over. First option treating monks like they are using twf with flurries = offhand attacks. The monk loses his highest bab this way, but still manages to deal damage twice with each hit. Ki strike, if used, is treated like greater twf for the 3rd hit.

Another option is a bit more convoluted, but involves treating the monks attacks as if they were natural attacks. In this case the monk takes half his primary attacks based on his BAB rounded up. So a 13th level monk has 3 attacks (13/8/3), half is 1.5 and rounded up is 2. So he gets 2 hits max, but each hit he rolls damage twice. Using flurry or ki attack adds to his number of potential hits. Essentially every hit in this manner will equal 2 damage rolls, and if he misses by 6 or less he will still roll damage once. What this basically turns into is a version of the twf rule that doesn't have a limit on which attacks will roll twice for damage.

We tossed around the idea of treating the first roll as the removal of iterative attacks (13/8/3) and then rolling separately for ki strikes and flurry, and if we like how the rest of the system plays out we may adopt it as it is the most sensible solution. However, the player testing the monk is also a DM in other games and wants to see if we can make it work without numerous rolls. (We're 14th or 15th in his game right now and getting a bit worn out on how long combat is starting to take so we hope the unchained rulesets allow us to help mitigate the twf or monk rolling 7-9 times a round while everyone else takes a nap).