Hello! I've recently joined a group to play but, even using my free time to gather as much information as I can, there are some things that I cannot find/understand. So I've found myself, new and ignorant, needed of help on even basic things.
I've seen this trait "Shield-Trained". With this trait, heavy shields are consideret light for me. So, my first question is:
1.- That means I can apply "Weapon Finesse" with heavy shields?
In some old threads, I've seen the "Bashing" property. It makes you shield deal damage as if it is a bashing weapon of two size categories larger. But at the end we can read:
"Only light and heavy shields can have this ability".
Then if I read the "Shield Spikes" which increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger, the second and third questions arise:
2.- An Spiked Heavy/Light Shield count as a Heavy/Light Shield and can be enhanced with this property?
3.- If it can be enhanced with it, both would stack?
As far as I know, any armor/weapon have to be masterworked to be enhanced with magic properties. In the "Shield" descripcion (Light Shield and their spiked versions too) we can read:
An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right
And this leads me fourth and fifth questions:
4.- To be able to enhance it with armor and/or weapon properties, they have to be masterworked as an armor (150 gp), as a weapon (300 gp) or as both (450 gp I gess)?
5.- The magical properties of armor and weapons placed on a shield, do they have a maximum of "+10" between both or each has its own maximum? Letting the Shield having an efective maximum of "+10/+10".
This questions lead me to the sixth:
6.- How should I calculate the price of mixing armor and weapon properties on an Shield?
I think I've done enought questions for now... Thanks in advance for giving your time reading and for the answers.
Finally sorry for my, almost sure, typos and misspelling. I'm quite bad with any language, even in my mother tongue :'( .
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1) Yes, this Trait would allow you to use Weapon Finesse with Heavy Shields.
2) Yes, you may enchant Light, Heavy, Light Spiked, and Heavy Spiked Shields with Bashing.
3) As per the Core Rulebook FAQ, Shield Spikes do not stack with Bashing.
4) Just 150gp. The Shield is already Masterwork by that point. You can't extra-Masterwork it. A Masterwork Shield does not convey an enhancement bonus on attack rolls, but can be enchanted to do so.
5) +10/+10 is possible, but obviously expensive.
6) Imagine pricing enchantments like a double weapon (even though it's not). Increase Shield enchantments as if it were a Shield and increase Weapon enchantments as if it were a Weapon. A +1/+1 Shield would cost just over 3000gp, for example.
Hope that helps!
I think you're right on everything but 4. Wouldn't the spikes have to be masterworks to be enchanted?
The spikes themselves just modify the shield, they aren't a weapon per se.
This is going to be very helpful!
Thank you so much for your prompt reply and your help!
I think you're right on everything but 4. Wouldn't the spikes have to be masterworks to be enchanted?The spikes themselves just modify the shield, they aren't a weapon per se.
I respectively disagree with your assessment. The spikes are a weapon attached to the shield, one that can be made of separate materials and enchanted separately. I see no reason not to have the option to buy masterwork, or to avoid the 300g enchanting tax. (Much like a double weapon.)
Hello again! The last answer left me with the question about how masterworking works so I've read again the masterwork Armor entry for armor and shields. This leads me to the first question:
- Would the Masterwork Transformation Spell be an exception to the rule that masterwork quality cannot be added to an object already created?
I guess it is, but I would like to be completely sure.
In the last paragraph of the masterwork description and the spell we can read:
Even though some types of armor and shields can be used as weapons, you can’t create a masterwork version of such an item that confers an enhancement bonus on attack rolls. However, you can create masterwork armor spikes and shield spikes, which do confer their enhancement bonus on attack rolls to attacks made with the spikes.
The material component for the spell is magical reagents worth the cost difference between a normal item and the equivalent masterwork item (typically 300 gp for a weapon, 150 gp for armor, or 50 gp for a tool). If an object has multiple masterwork options (such as a double weapon, or a spiked shield that could be made masterwork as a weapon or armor), you choose one option of the object to affect (though you can cast the spell again to affect another option).
As far as I understand, you can create Spiked Shields as high quality as armor and weapon (paying 150gp + 300gp I guess) or just one of them. But, in the Shield Spikes we can read:
An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
This brings me to the second question:
- Would this mean that it isn't necessary masterwork the Spiked Shield as a weapon to enchant it with weapon properties?
The description "talks" about making the "Spiked Shield" magic, not the spikes.
The Shield (not spiked) has de same entry, so I guess they work in the same way with the exception that they cannot be masterworked as a weapon because it's specified to be able to be done on Spikes.
I couldn't find anywhere if the spikes can be enchanted on its own... for that, my third question is:
- Could you tell me where it is?
I'm sure that I've passed through where it is but I haven't seen it.
Thanks in advance for giving your time reading and for the answers.
Finally, apologize for typos and misspellings. I'm quite bad with any language.
The pathfinder rule set tends not to be linguistically logically consistent (someone else can provide the technical term for this).
Digging into the RAW line by line is a rabbit hole of madness, accept RAI that spikes are weapons, and will follow the cost + 300 + 2000(Bonus)^2 rule every other weapon follows. Looking for explicit wording to this effect will drive you crazy, over 300g.
Hope this helps.
Hello and I apologize for my late response.
@DM Livgin: These days I have found that is a little madness as you say but I want to know how it works by RAW or at least as close as possible to be able to explain it at the GM and then decide how we are going to use it at the table. Anyway, thank you so much for the advice; I will keep it in mind.
After re-reading my own questions, I've realized that the first one it should be:
"Would the Masterwork Transformation Spell be an exception to the rule that masterwork quality cannot be added to an object already created?"
The other questions are still the same, but I'm trying to reformulate them:
Reading the Masterwork Armor, the Masterwork Transformation Spell and the Shield Spikes descriptions:
- Would this mean that it isn't necessary masterwork the Spiked Shield as a weapon to enchant it with weapon properties?
For what I've seen until now, when you attach Spikes to a Shield it becomes an Spiked Shield not a Shield with Spikes (I don't know how to explain it correctly...), so:
- Could someone tell me where I can find if the Spikes of a Shield count as a separated weapon and can be enhanced on their own?
Thanks in advance for giving your time reading and for the answers.
Finally, apologize for typos and misspellings. I'm quite bad with any language.
A spiked shield has its own entry on the weapons table.
Armor spikes have their own entry on the weapon table.
SHIELD SPIKES DO NOT HAVE AN ENTRY ON THE WEAPONS TABLE.
Shield Spikes are not separate weapons. They modify the shield and turn it into something else.
Adding adamatinte shield spikes to a shield does not make it an Adamantium spiked shield, and it will not pierce DR/Adamantine. A mithral spiked shield, just like a normal shield, WILL pierce DR/Silver.
A shield is considered a piece of armor normally, and explicitly is called out for the masterwork rules there (along with gauntlets). Basically, the only reason that they even mention not being able to add the +1 TH for masterwork weapons to a piece of armor is because of shields and gauntlets.
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So, in summary:
1) Pretty much. Normally, to make something masterwork, you have to build it from scratch.
2) If the shield is masterwork armor, that's all that's needed to enhance it. You both cannot and need not masterwork it as a weapon, by RAW. Note: Your DM may wish to rule otherwise.
3) The spikes modify the shield. The language would be: +5 Bashing Spiked Shield, +5 Defender. NOT: +5 Bashing Shield with +5 Defender SPikes.
The spikes change the shield, they do not stand alone.
ARMOR SPIKES stand alone.
==Aelryinth
As I've said before, I just wanted to know how it works and then talk with the DM and decide what to do. In my opinion it's better knowing how it works by RAW and then, having a base to work with, house rule it (if wanted).
I think I finally got it thanks to all of you. Thank you so much for your help!