Readying an action to move next to a caster in order to get an AoO against them... this may be legal, but I hope someone gives a strong argument for why it isn't. I don't want this to be legal.
However, if it IS legal, I would definitely classify it as a "dark side" tactic - i.e. abusing the rules to achieve something which is almost certainly against the spirit of the combat system.
How so?
It has no real strategic advantage over readying an action to use a ranged weapon. It could easily fail if the caster decides to stand in the wrong place. It won't work twice against the same enemy, as a caster can simply start casting defensively once they realise the danger.
The only strike against it is that there's a slightly odd order of events, like many things in a turn-based system, especially when readied actions are involved. But I can easily visualise a fighter dashing across a room to hit a wizard while he's distracted casting a spell.
The only way it's out of tune with the rest of the combat system is that it allows martial characters to do something unexpected to mess things up for casters, instead of the other way round as usual.
Well then what about this. I ready an action to attack the bad guy when he starts to attack me and then 5' step away.
Well the bad guy gets smacked and now he has no target he has to attack an empty space.
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How so?It has no real strategic advantage over readying an action to use a ranged weapon. It could easily fail if the caster decides to stand in the wrong place. It won't work twice against the same enemy, as a caster can simply start casting defensively once they realise the danger.
....
The only way it's out of tune with the rest of the combat system is that it allows martial characters to do something unexpected to mess things up for casters, instead of the other way round as usual.
It has the advantage of working with any weapon that threatens, as opposed to only ranged weapons. It shuts down 5 foot steps as a method of defeating AoOs from the majority of martial combatants, and it requires no resource investment beyond a standard action ready. It's not broken and I would be OK with someone doing it, but lets not pretend that it isn't an amazing option for someone like a greatsword wielding fighter who is otherwise virtually never going to disrupt casters without dumping multiple feats into it (and even then, it's still not likely).
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Well then what about this. I ready an action to attack the bad guy when he starts to attack me and then 5' step away.
Well the bad guy gets smacked and now he has no target he has to attack an empty space.
As long as you didn't move on your turn (thus can take a 5' step during your readied action) that's completely fine within the rules. After I've pointed out to GMs (multiple GMs) that you can indeed take a 5' step as part of your readied action, some have said that I need to declare the 5' step as part of the readied action, so just be aware of that.
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Readied actions in general are pretty ridiculous. Whoever's idea was it that every creature in Golarion can inherently see up to 3 seconds into the future without magic? Would say that this is an odd result, but it isn't, because NO usage of readied action makes any more sense.
A readied action isn't magic, or any kind of future sight. It's the result of planning. "I will ready to attack the next enemy that comes within my reach." How is that any kind of magic? Also, if no enemy comes within your reach, your action is wasted.
Think of it this way, you're watching football and the team you're rooting for is driving down the field and it looks like they're going to score. You wait for the score to happen before you jump up and cheer, or basically, you "ready to cheer when you're team scores points". It's pretty straight forward, no magic or future sight needed.
Since a 5' step can be taken at any time, and if the caster hasn't moved, what would prevent the caster from just 5' stepping out of reach?
"You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round." Since they've already started to cast (the trigger for your readied action) they can't 5' step away.
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Honestly, I don't see why this should be allowed. Maybe by RAW it is okay, but clearly not by RAI. This is all basically a huge elaborate attempt to bypass the "casting defensively" mechanic, by taking the ability to even decide to do that out of the wizard's hand (obviously a wizard could still cast defensively, but if nobody can threaten them there'd be no reason to try to since there is a chance of failure).
Why wouldn't your character just move up to the wizard and threaten them so they can't cast a spell, instead of obtusely "waiting" for them to start before moving? Obviously because the mechanics of the game make it laughably easy for Wizards to cast spells despite being threatened (either through moving 5ft away, or if the fighter has step up, then making an easy cast defensively check that the fighter can't influence). This is I feel, the crux of the issue - I think casters could stand to be nerfed by removing casting defensively, and then fighters wouldn't feel the need to try shenanigans like this.
As for whether you get an AoO, I would say that since the action which would provoke is initiated before your readied goes off, it no longer counts as provoking an AoO (because you weren't threatening him when he started casting).
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Since a 5' step can be taken at any time, and if the caster hasn't moved, what would prevent the caster from just 5' stepping out of reach?"You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round." Since they've already started to cast (the trigger for your readied action) they can't 5' step away.
Since I have already started to cast, then no AoO, since the AoO is only triggered at the start of casting. So there appears to be a way out whatever the ruling of a GM.
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Since I have already started to cast, then no AoO, since the AoO is only triggered at the start of casting. So there appears to be a way out whatever the ruling of a GM.Since a 5' step can be taken at any time, and if the caster hasn't moved, what would prevent the caster from just 5' stepping out of reach?"You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round." Since they've already started to cast (the trigger for your readied action) they can't 5' step away.
Hence the universe blowing up. You get the most of this rule if you follow it as it's written. Someone starts an action, your response goes off in response to that action and you resolve your trigger before that action happens, now they do their action just as they were doing because a result has already happened because of it. Eat up whatever consequences there are now because of that action.
If you start trying to change anything about that action at any point along the line, then you get into a time-conundrum and if you want that just watch a scifi movie.
Since I have already started to cast, then no AoO, since the AoO is only triggered at the start of casting. So there appears to be a way out whatever the ruling of a GM.Since a 5' step can be taken at any time, and if the caster hasn't moved, what would prevent the caster from just 5' stepping out of reach?"You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round." Since they've already started to cast (the trigger for your readied action) they can't 5' step away.
You have Committed to casting. Committing to casting is often said by starting to cast when spoken in readied actions. But in actuality Committing to cast is the Trigger for casting a spell for readied actions. Now that they have committed you do your readied action. Now you're standing next to them and they now continue their action and begin to cast the spell, since they already committed to do so, thus triggering your readied action. And since casting provokes it provokes and the person next to you can take the AoO. Realize that things provoke regardless of if someone can take the AoO or not, just if someone isn't threatening provoking doesn't matter. But since the caster is committed to casting he can't 5ft step, as he's locked in his action now.
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Hence the universe blowing up. You get the most of this rule if you follow it as it's written. Someone starts an action, your response goes off in response to that action and you resolve your trigger before that action happens, now they do their action just as they were doing because a result has already happened because of it. Eat up whatever consequences there are now because of that action.
If you start trying to change anything about that action at any point along the line, then you get into a time-conundrum and if you want that just watch a scifi movie.
Stop and re-read what you wrote, focusing on the newly bolded words (mine).
How does a RESPONSE go off BEFORE the thing it is responding to? That makes no sense temporally. You can only physically respond to things that happened in the PAST, i.e. your response necessarily happens AFTER the trigger.
Unless you can see the future. Changing readied action would not make it sci-fi. Readied action already is sci-fi, in every application, as written, it requires seeing the future.
Your reading of it is correct RAW, for sure, but RAW is very silly with regard to this. If your concern is avoiding silliness, then you should house rule ban readied action entirely.
That's the only part of your response that I care about because that is exactly my point. I don't care how ridiculous/wrong/whatever it seems to you, because it makes sense to me and is rather plain and straightforward in how it's presented to us as written. My concern isn't avoiding this, it's avoiding the silliness you're trying to get away with by arguing against what the rules says.
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I actually would disagree that RAW this is allowable. I would think it would hinge on the reading of beginning to cast and continuing the action.
From Ready: "Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action."
The trigger of the move is the wizard begins to cast. So the fighter then gets her move action, and that action (only the move, not an AoO) is resolved. So now she's next to the caster, and the caster then continues to cast the spell. The caster does not begin to cast the spell once more... the spell casting has already begun. Time does not stop, the rules simply say one action resolves before another. So the move action resolves, and then the spell resolves. Since beginning to cast the spell is the only thing that would provoke the AoO, no AoO is provoked from continuing and resolving that action.
I think this is exactly why the rules state that beginning to cast the spell is what provokes... if you don't threaten at the beginning, then no AoO.
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I actually would disagree that RAW this is allowable. I would think it would hinge on the reading of beginning to cast and continuing the action.
From Ready: "Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action."
The trigger of the move is the wizard begins to cast. So the fighter then gets her move action, and that action (only the move, not an AoO) is resolved. So now she's next to the caster, and the caster then continues to cast the spell. The caster does not begin to cast the spell once more... the spell casting has already begun. Time does not stop, the rules simply say one action resolves before another. So the move action resolves, and then the spell resolves. Since beginning to cast the spell is the only thing that would provoke the AoO, no AoO is provoked from continuing and resolving that action.
I think this is exactly why the rules state that beginning to cast the spell is what provokes... if you don't threaten at the beginning, then no AoO.
Well put .. this is how I understand it to work.
Crimeo, you need to make up your mind on whether you are going strict RAW or if you are using logical interpretation, because you jump back and forth between the two concepts pretty inconsistently. You can't choose your response to a question and then shape your argument around that. That is called confirmation bias.
Because the combat round is an abstraction of a whole bunch of simultaneous actions that were assigned an order based on game design and balance to make a turn move smoothly rather than spend 5 minutes going "I do X" "Ah ha I do Y to counter X" "No, I do Z to counter Y instead of X" for every single action.Numerator, that is how real-life time works, yes, but I think RAW is very clear that time does not work normally here, and the readied action resolves before the trigger that triggered it. So it would be before he starts casting.
The trigger both causes it and happens after it, which is why it is silly, but also doesn't seem ambiguous about this.
IF the "continues" thing were all there was, I would agree with you, but it isn't, it also says "The action occurs just before the action that triggers it." which IMO makes it unambiguous that he is indeed standing there before the casting begins. Somehow...
+1
Contrary to a very literal reading of RAW, combat is not a series of individuals each acting in 6 second intervals.
I actually would disagree that RAW this is allowable. I would think it would hinge on the reading of beginning to cast and continuing the action.
From Ready: "Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action."
The trigger of the move is the wizard begins to cast. So the fighter then gets her move action, and that action (only the move, not an AoO) is resolved. So now she's next to the caster, and the caster then continues to cast the spell. The caster does not begin to cast the spell once more... the spell casting has already begun. Time does not stop, the rules simply say one action resolves before another. So the move action resolves, and then the spell resolves. Since beginning to cast the spell is the only thing that would provoke the AoO, no AoO is provoked from continuing and resolving that action.
I think this is exactly why the rules state that beginning to cast the spell is what provokes... if you don't threaten at the beginning, then no AoO.
Generally, if you cast a spell, you provoke attacks of opportunity from threatening enemies.
Nothing that only the beginning of casting the spell provokes. but that casting a spell provokes. So if you are doing that then you are provoking.
So "... The trigger of the move is the wizard begins to cast. So the fighter then gets her move action, and that action (only the move, not an AoO) is resolved. So now she's next to the caster, and the caster then continues to cast the spell." and thus continues to provoke as you are casting a spell and that provokes. the spell is not done so you're provoking still.
So "... The trigger of the move is the wizard begins to cast. So the fighter then gets her move action, and that action (only the move, not an AoO) is resolved. So now she's next to the caster, and the caster then continues to cast the spell." and thus continues to provoke as you are casting a spell and that provokes. the spell is not done so you're provoking still.
There is no such thing as "continues to provoke." CRB states very clearly that an action only provokes once. CRB also states very clearly that AoO's 'interrupt' the normal flow of actions, that means any action which provokes, does so when it is initiated. If you are not there when a wizard does something which can provoke, then you missed your opportunity (that's why it's called an attack of opportunity).
To say otherwise is to basically say you can force anyone to draw an AoO whenever you want by "readying" a move action to get next to them when they do something that could draw an AoO. It is absolutely cheese and doesn't make a lick of sense.
Commando is correct that there is no such thing as "continues to provoke"
However, it is irrelevant here, because since the readied action explicitly occurs before the trigger that triggered it, the caster begins to cast after the fighter is already in place. So it is a non issue. Everyone agrees that beginning to cast provokes, and since that happens after the movement by RAW, there is a clear case of provoking. Without having to claim any such thing as "continuing to provoke"
Are you some kind of timelord then? You can't wait for someone to cast a spell, then suddenly know they're about to do an action and 'interrupt' them before they've even started. That's silly. The CRB does not say your interrupting action occurs before the triggering action begins, just that it happens to resolve first. To say otherwise is to imply everyone is basically psychic.
Again, CLEARLY not RAI. And not even RAW in my opinion, unless you seriously contort the meaning of words.
The CRB does not say your interrupting action occurs before the triggering action beginsYes, it says exactly that
CRB: "The action occurs just before the action that triggers it."
Doesn't get any more explicit than that, dude. And yes, this does imply that characters are all psychic / time lords. Don't complain to me about it, I didn't write the CRB. Complain to Paizo. But that's what it says, plain as day.
Like I said, if you contort the meaning of words and try to soundbite the CRB. You ever work for a politician? Here's what the CRB says directly before, and directly after that particular sentence.
"Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition."
In response. As in, after something meets your condition, as in no you are not next to the wizard before he even starts casting.
"Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action."
he continues his actions. As in, he already started casting his spell by the time you got there, once you finish moving, he finishes not starts casting his spell.
But way to try and take the CRB out of context! The CRB does not say your action occurs before the start of the triggering action, merely that it completes first, as in "before the other guy finishes what he was going to do"
You seem to think that the CRB accurately reflects real life Crimeo, I hate to break this to you, but it doesn't. There needs to be some concessions made to reflect that it is a game. Where in real life things happen simultaneously that just cannot happen under the structure of the game system. We alternate attacks, we separate movement and attacks, when it comes to a turn based system and reactions to other actions there has to be an inter-positioning.
There is no time-travel, just rules conventions.
I was mistaken, you do indeed only provoke when you begin casting a spell.
"The action occurs just before the action that triggers it."
-I ready an action to move when he begins to cast a spell.
-he begins to cast a spell
-I take my readied action
-My readied action occurs before the action of you beginning to cast a spell, since my readied action is when he begins to cast a spell.
-now my readied action is done and you continue to do the action you were about to do, begin to cast a spell.
-So when you begin to cast a spell I'm there, Thus you'd provoke.
yes, readied actions and AoO for that matter, don't make time logic sense. That's the deal with turn based stuff.
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-now my readied action is done and you continue to do the action you were about to do, begin to cast a spell.
-So when you begin to cast a spell I'm there, Thus you'd provoke.
This is where I fail to understand your logic. How can the spellcaster continue to cast his spell if he's beginning it after you moved?
This is where I fail to understand your logic. How can the spellcaster continue to cast his spell if he's beginning it after you moved?-now my readied action is done and you continue to do the action you were about to do, begin to cast a spell.
-So when you begin to cast a spell I'm there, Thus you'd provoke.
Because rules. That's what the rules state. My readied movement happens before the action that triggers it, but the action that triggers it started to trigger it.
You have Committed to casting. Committing to casting is often said by starting to cast when spoken in readied actions. But in actuality Committing to cast is the Trigger for casting a spell for readied actions. Now that they have committed you do your readied action. Now you're standing next to them and they now continue their action and begin to cast the spell, since they already committed to do so which was the triggering of your readied action. And since casting provokes it provokes and the person next to you can take the AoO. Since the caster is committed to casting he can't 5ft step, as he's locked in his action now.
This is how I "logically explain the rules." Personally I don't care about the HOW. I stopped once a pixie could crane wing an ancient red wyrm's bite. The rules say you start trigger my action that happens before you start and then you continue, basically redo the part of it you did to trigger me since I was already there when you started.
"Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition."
In response. As in, after something meets your condition, as in no you are not next to the wizard before he even starts casting.
"Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action."
he continues his actions. As in, he already started casting his spell by the time you got there, once you finish moving, he finishes not starts casting his spell.
This does not erase the quote I already posted, which again is CRYSTAL CLEAR and could not possibly have any other interpretation other than exactly what it says: your readied action occurs before the one that triggered it. What on earth other interpretation of that do you have?
Your other posted quotes simply mean one of the following things is true:
1) The CRB now also implies you can time travel, by choosing at any point before your next action to go back and do something before the action that triggered it.
2) The CRB simply contradicts itself
Take your pick. Personally I'd just house rule it to work differently, since it's a trainwreck, but if you want strict RAW, you need to pick one of the two above options.
Unless you can give me any other reasonable interpretation of "The action occurs just before the action that triggers it." other than the action occurring before the action that triggers it.
Very well, here. I will lay out how the damn phrase (if you actually bother to look at the context around it) should be read as.
"The action occurs just before the action that triggers it"
I will replace the word "action" with the actual stuff happening.
"Your movement occurs just before the spell is cast that triggers it"
IE No, your movement does not occur before the spell is started. You movement occurs before the spell is finished. The statement can be interpreted in either way only if read alone. In the context of the paragraph, it is obvious the words 'That triggers it' are included because something has to happen before your readied can actually occur (that is, the action that triggers your ready).
The fact that I have to explain this is stupid. The intent of the rules is entirely clear, if you don't read a single damn sentence as literally as you possibly can.
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You weren't there when the casting began. You were on your way there, but you weren't there. Just because it is a turn based system doesn't mean things don't happen simultaneously... the turn based nature just organizes how things resolve. Time does not stop while you resolve your action...the actions happen simultaneously, and the readied action resolves first. Thus, your movement resolves before the spell is resolved, so if you are now out of range of the spell, bravo! If you are now next to the caster and cause it to shift the cone to you instead of your friend, then the resolution of your move was important to happen first. It just does not hold up that you are in place to benefit from the event that triggered your movement in the first place!
All this hinges on reading of one line "the action occurs just before the event that triggers it". The rest of the text of that section infers this only has to do with placement in initiative and resolving the actions.
The Ready An Action section also mentions that if your READIED ACTION interrupts another character's action, that they are interrupted. If you wanted to be pedantic, you could say that the fighter's readied action is a move, and a move would not itself interrupt the casting of the spell, so the action is not interrupted.
Further, if you go down just a little more in that section, it spells out exactly how to distract a spell caster: "You can ready an attack against a spellcaster with the trigger “if she starts casting a spell.”" You ready an attack. Which means you need to be in place to deliver said attack. This strict interpretation of "occurs just before" is just a way to get around a rule that addresses just this very thing! It just doesn't pass the smell test, and seems a stretch.
It says before THE ACTION. Not "the conclusion of thee action" or "before the action that triggered it completes" or anything else of the sort. That is not ambiguous. If the other context implies something else, then the other context contradicts this, and they screwed up writing it. English does not morph as needed to the needs of Paizo never being wrong.
When is "before"? What constitutes "action"?
As I said, your action can either occur before the beginning of another action, or before the end of another action. That particular sentence doesn't make the distinction in the CRB. The supporting sentences do (before the end of another action).
The goddamned CRB doesn't need to say "at the conclusion" you're assumed to be smart enough to make the connection. Because you know what? Timelording your ready to go off before it's triggered doesn't follow causality and makes no f%#&ing sense.
"THE ACTION" is ambiguous and can be interpreted differently. There are two points for any action, the beginning and the end.
And in this case, it's both, because when you don't add a qualifier, in English, you are referring to the whole thing. And being before the whole thing includes being before every part of it, including the beginning.
No. It doesn't. It means neither. A failure to be specific doesn't automatically mean something else specific. The CRB in no way "implies the whole."
Besides which, the context of the paragraph makes it very clear, has in fact qualified, that it is referring to the end not the beginning. The fact you continue to ignore context is irrelevant.
I agree. It's unfortunate that they wrote something that makes no sense.
No. The CRB clearly makes sense. You don't. Your insistence on cherrypicking passages in the CRB doesn't construct a convincing argument.
Very well, here. I will lay out how the damn phrase (if you actually bother to look at the context around it) should be read as.
"The action occurs just before the action that triggers it"
I will replace the word "action" with the actual stuff happening.
"Your movement occurs just before the spell is cast that triggers it"
IE No, your movement does not occur before the spell is started. You movement occurs before the spell is finished. The statement can be interpreted in either way only if read alone. In the context of the paragraph, it is obvious the words 'That triggers it' are included because something has to happen before your readied can actually occur (that is, the action that triggers your ready).
The fact that I have to explain this is stupid. The intent of the rules is entirely clear, if you don't read a single damn sentence as literally as you possibly can.
"The action occurs just before the action that triggers it"
I will replace the word "action" with the actual stuff happening."Your movement occurs just before the beginning of the casting of a spell as that is what the trigger is"
IE YES, your movement does occur before the spell is started.
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"The action occurs just before the action that triggers it"
I will replace the word "action" with the actual stuff happening.
"Your movement occurs just before the beginning of the casting of a spell as that is what the trigger is"
IE YES, your movement does occur before the spell is started.
I can see this is now an argument about what words mean, not about the actual rules, and will be bowing out now.