Rend: Bonus Damage or Separate Damage?


Rules Questions


20 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Paizo PRD: Universal Monster Rules wrote:
Rend (Ex) If it hits with two or more natural attacks in 1 round, a creature with the rend special attack can cause tremendous damage by latching onto the opponent's body and tearing flesh. This attack deals an additional amount of damage, but no more than once per round. The type of attacks that must hit and the additional damage are included in the creature's description. The additional damage is usually equal to the damage caused by one of the attacks plus 1-1/2 the creature's Strength bonus.

Q: Is the damage from the rend special attack added as bonus damage to the attack that triggered the rend, or is it applied as a separate instance of damage from the triggering attack?

Follow-up QA: If it's applied separately, how is the damage type determined for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and regeneration?
Follow-up QB: If it's added as bonus damage, how does the strength modifier to damage on the rend interact with the strength modifier to damage on the triggering attack (since this FAQ states these are both strength bonuses, and thus do not stack).

Previous threads relevant to the question:
Rend + Power Attack (1/3/2010)
Rend vs DR (4/29/2011)
Consensus on Rend vs DR (4/19/2015)

Unofficial responses:
James Jacobs has stated his opinion that rend is not a separate source of damage. (1/3/2010)
Mark Moreland has stated rend is a separate instance of damage and that power attack applies. (9/6/2012)
Mark Seifter has run it as a separate source of damage, but has stated the wording is ambiguous. (9/23/2015)

Supplemental:
The stat blocks for the Troll Ripper, Render, and Monarch from Monster Codex illustrate that rend does not receive bonuses to damage as claws do (receiving no benefit from the Amulet of Mighty Fists nor Weapon Training: Natural), except when otherwise noted (such as with rending gauntlets). This seems to be in conflict with Mark Moreland's interpretation. (As an aside, the rend damage on the Troll Fury and Elder Matron seem to be in error, with their rend damage not being adjusted for their slightly higher and lower strength modifiers compared to the bestiary troll.)

Improved Rending Fury adds damage to a rend, but mentions that damage not multiplying on a critical hit. Its Combat Trick allows the damage to multiply on a critical hit. Neither are possible unless rend damage is added to an attack.

So if you'd like to see an answer, hit the FAQ button! Thanks!


Rend damage is untyped, and should bypass DR because of that. I'd say you can crit on a rend, but you need to roll a second confirmation roll. Rends have a x2 crit.

Anyway, your PC shouldn't have rend, its a Universal Monster ability, not a class feature.


Rhatahema wrote:


Unofficial responses:
James Jacobs has stated his opinion that rend is not a separate source of damage. (1/3/2010)

I don't know who James Jacobs is but this is definately an UNOFFICIAL RESPONSE and it is wrong.

Dark Archive

Nardoz Zardoz wrote:

Rend damage is untyped, and should bypass DR because of that. I'd say you can crit on a rend, but you need to roll a second confirmation roll. Rends have a x2 crit.

Anyway, your PC shouldn't have rend, its a Universal Monster ability, not a class feature.

Not even a dragon bloodline sorcerer or dragon disciple? Wouldn't you be able to take a feat to gain rend? And isn't it still a good idea for the GM to know conclusively how to apply rend when a monster uses it?


Nardoz Zardoz wrote:
Rhatahema wrote:


Unofficial responses:
James Jacobs has stated his opinion that rend is not a separate source of damage. (1/3/2010)
I don't know who James Jacobs is but this is definately an UNOFFICIAL RESPONSE and it is wrong.

0.o?


Nardoz Zardoz wrote:
Rhatahema wrote:


Unofficial responses:
James Jacobs has stated his opinion that rend is not a separate source of damage. (1/3/2010)
I don't know who James Jacobs is but this is definately an UNOFFICIAL RESPONSE and it is wrong.

Uh, have you ever looked through the credits in the beginning of the book?


Nardoz Zardoz wrote:

Rend damage is untyped, and should bypass DR because of that. I'd say you can crit on a rend, but you need to roll a second confirmation roll. Rends have a x2 crit.

Anyway, your PC shouldn't have rend, its a Universal Monster ability, not a class feature.

There are feats for it, the first one I found.


I'm inclined to say it's added as bonus damage. Sidesteps all the issues with DR/Regeneration, the uncertainty of what, if any, damage bonuses apply, etc. The STR modifier overlap is the only problem I see, and that's a problem introduced by a ruling made after rend was written.


Bump for visibility. Interested in other perspectives on the issue. Or more FAQ hits, if that's the case. Just one of many monster abilities that's never really been addressed.


Follow-up QC: When does a creature need to make the decision to rend? After hitting with the necessary number of attacks, or after having dealt damage with the necessary number of attacks? It seems that it would be decided after the hit if it's treated as bonus damage, but decided after rolling damage if it's a separate instance of damage.

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