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I think you may have missed what the discussion about martials has been about and why people believe they are boring. It doesn't involve role play -- and in fact I'm almost certain that people are going to bring the Stormwind fallacy up -- or writing a creative backstory.
Rather, there are those that believe that many of the martial's abilities are what are boring or not interesting compared, perhaps, to the spell caster's.
Your article is a great way to help with a character's backstory and show how anyone can be interesting. It does not, however, touch on the conversations that have been going on around here, however.
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KnightnDay, I'm aware of the conversation about martial characters abilities being lackluster, but that wasn't the conversation I was referencing. Instead I was addressing players who believe that, thematically, explaining how someone became a master of the sword or an expert archer is intrinsically less interesting than telling about how mages graduated from an arcane college, or witches were granted power by alien, unknown patrons.
People say that? Maybe you've just been reading different threads than I've been reading.
Roleplay-wise, no single character is boring unless you make it boring. This could be due to lack of interest or simply that you're a bad role player (for example, my wife is horrible at this game, but she plays anyways because she likes it when I'm enjoying my hobby). Mechanically, characters are boring when they can't meaningfully contribute to major aspects of the game. *This* is the problem with fighters.
Also, though I didn't believe it happened, I did finally sit at a table with someone whose fighter was little more than an occasionally animate suit of armor. He fought, and when combat was over, either drank in silence, or walked to the next fight. It got to the point I occasionally forgot he was even in the game.
This is mostly because fighters can't actually do anything outside of combat. They don't have the mechanics to contribute outside of combat. Practically, the only thing a fighter can do outside of combat is rely on the player's skill in roleplaying, and if you have a shy player, then you'll have an invisible fighter when the combat ends.
I do like the article. If a new player wanted to play a Fighter I would definitely recommend they try to flesh out their reasons for fighting so that they feel more compelled to at least speak outside of combat. (I would also encourage they take the Lore Warden archetype so they can have some skills). But I agree with the other posters that there is much more wrong with the Fighter than players not having a backstory, they really do need more ability to do things.
Hey a martial master mutagen warrior eldritch guardian(with a mauler archetype familiar) is a solid tier 4 class.
Fighters can work if you stop being a fighter.
KnightnDay, I'm aware of the conversation about martial characters abilities being lackluster, but that wasn't the conversation I was referencing. Instead I was addressing players who believe that, thematically, explaining how someone became a master of the sword or an expert archer is intrinsically less interesting than telling about how mages graduated from an arcane college, or witches were granted power by alien, unknown patrons.
I feel that there is likely a cross-over in these conversations, though. For some players the inherent pull and escapism of magic is a blanket effect, and it is their personal love. For other players, magic is something they grudgingly tolerate, but have little to no interest in for their own characters. There's only a problem when one side begins to lose the line between their opinion and facts, claiming that what they believe regarding RPGs is now something everyone should agree on.
Also, though I didn't believe it happened, I did finally sit at a table with someone whose fighter was little more than an occasionally animate suit of armor. He fought, and when combat was over, either drank in silence, or walked to the next fight. It got to the point I occasionally forgot he was even in the game.
I tend to agree with bookrat on this. If you have a shy player, or one that doesn't feel an urge to put anything into their character, you get a forgettable character. In another thread someone mentioned that they've run across characters that are utterly bland, with no description as well.
One can make any character interesting with a little effort. But it takes a bit more than that to satisfy the problem that people have been having with martials.
KnightnDay, I'm aware of the conversation about martial characters abilities being lackluster, but that wasn't the conversation I was referencing. Instead I was addressing players who believe that, thematically, explaining how someone became a master of the sword or an expert archer is intrinsically less interesting than telling about how mages graduated from an arcane college, or witches were granted power by alien, unknown patrons.
I feel that there is likely a cross-over in these conversations, though. For some players the inherent pull and escapism of magic is a blanket effect, and it is their personal love. For other players, magic is something they grudgingly tolerate, but have little to no interest in for their own characters. There's only a problem when one side begins to lose the line between their opinion and facts, claiming that what they believe regarding RPGs is now something everyone should agree on.
Also, though I didn't believe it happened, I did finally sit at a table with someone whose fighter was little more than an occasionally animate suit of armor. He fought, and when combat was over, either drank in silence, or walked to the next fight. It got to the point I occasionally forgot he was even in the game.
I tend to agree with bookrat on this. If you have a shy player, or one that doesn't feel an urge to put anything into their character, you get a forgettable character. In another thread someone mentioned that they've run across characters that are utterly bland, with no description as well.
One can make any character interesting with a little effort. But it takes a bit more than that to satisfy the problem that people have been having with martials.
It's not even skill points. As said, it's just ... the roleplay of it. Granted, I have a barbarian instead of a fighter, but she keeps active outside of combat. But a rogue with more skill points than my barb has hit points can disappear if he just does nothing.
That said, yeah, a fighter has a huge obstacle in what to do when the fight's over. The other martial classes have a little ability to pick up a few skills here and there (such as my barb with Knowledge (nature), and picking up Knowlege (planes) just because), but fighters have it worse two ways: 2 points to start with, plus a general theme that they must tank Int (and other 'be interesting' stats) to do their job well. The BSF doesn't earn his or her S for wanting it, it's because of what's needed to get B and F going. And while clerics and sorcerors are also hosed on skill points, both do have magic at their call. (And sorcerors can tank Str to some extent too.)
The manor problem is also that the fighter is just.... TOO vanilla...
Now granted, veteran players can create eloborate stories and such and know how to reflavor classes to fit. But for less experienced players, they tend to look at the flavor of the class already.
The rogue has huge amounts of flavor from its name. The wizard and cleric are well known and fleshed out people. The paladin invokes strong imagery and the barbarian screams its reason with just its name. The ranger takes on a life of its own thanks to LotR, and bards are an RP heavy class. The monk is thematic as all hell and has mostly abilities that are tied to RP vs plain mechanical benefits.
The fighter though.... he pretty much forces himself into the "I only fight" schtick. His name is uninspired (hell the warrior NPC class has a cooler name...), his class mechanics are boring and dont inspire without hefty system knowledge (the feats are flavorful and cool if you know how to build and such,but to the laymen, they wont know all the more obscure feats or feat combinations), and his MADness and lack of skill points just compound things worse.
The manor problem is also that the fighter is just.... TOO vanilla...
Now granted, veteran players can create eloborate stories and such and know how to reflavor classes to fit. But for less experienced players, they tend to look at the flavor of the class already.
The rogue has huge amounts of flavor from its name. The wizard and cleric are well known and fleshed out people. The paladin invokes strong imagery and the barbarian screams its reason with just its name. The ranger takes on a life of its own thanks to LotR, and bards are an RP heavy class. The monk is thematic as all hell and has mostly abilities that are tied to RP vs plain mechanical benefits.
The fighter though.... he pretty much forces himself into the "I only fight" schtick. His name is uninspired (hell the warrior NPC class has a cooler name...), his class mechanics are boring and dont inspire without hefty system knowledge (the feats are flavorful and cool if you know how to build and such,but to the laymen, they wont know all the more obscure feats or feat combinations), and his MADness and lack of skill points just compound things worse.
Heck, mechanically, rogue has thematic mechanics that can feel good (admittedly, feels better on slayers, since they pull it off better...but lets stick to the issue)- just throwing out a ton of extra damage because you found a way to get one over on an opponent- a sudden lunge from the shadows, striking them while they aren slipping on grease
....half of us are here so we DON'T go to Vegas and lose all our money, so throwing out that many dice just feels great.
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John Smith. Average Fighter.
He is an average human, with average features, average eye/hair color, and average weight/height.
He had an average childhood. He has average parents. He lived an average town, in an average part, of an average country.
He now adventures for the average reasons, using his average fighting skills to help in said adventures.
He now adventures for the average reasons, using his average fighting skills to help in said adventures.
Is that mean "average" or mode "average"? Is that "average" for a fighter or "average" for a human?
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Just some idea's I'd throw out there.
the Fighter is the only one out of three core classes that starts out proficient in heavy armour without having to follow a strict code of conduct. you can use that to your advantage, perhaps your character was expected to walk a certain path in life, expected to become a paladin or a cavalier or for some reason rejected it or maybe was rejected by it. Maybe the character is fuelled by resentment of some kind or just doesn't want to be bound by any particular edict and values freedom.
the second idea I have is to focus on one weapon. maybe as a child she grew up in the circus with her bow, and perfected the art of marksmanship for her performance. Or maybe the character woke up in the middle of a forrest with no memory of who they were, the only thing to give them any clue as to who they are were clothes on their back and the sword planted into the earth next to them.
thats what I got anyway :p
John Smith. Average Fighter.
He is an average human, with average features, average eye/hair color, and average weight/height.
He had an average childhood. He has average parents. He lived an average town, in an average part, of an average country.
He now adventures for the average reasons, using his average fighting skills to help in said adventures.
Somehow that d8 he's rolling keeps showing 4.5.
Somehow that d8 he's rolling keeps showing 4.5.John Smith. Average Fighter.
He is an average human, with average features, average eye/hair color, and average weight/height.
He had an average childhood. He has average parents. He lived an average town, in an average part, of an average country.
He now adventures for the average reasons, using his average fighting skills to help in said adventures.
I wouldn't do a crit based build with him since he only ever rolls 10.5.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I've seen a lot of discussion about how martial characters are boring, and about half the time the main complaint seems to be that those in charge of the PC simply don't put in any more thought than that the character is a fighter, and thus he or she fights.
Really? You've actually seen that?
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this is not the martial issue
but it is a blog promotion
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
this is not the martial issue
but it is a blog promotion
Yeah, it almost feels more like "I need an attention-grabbing intro for the post where I'll link this blog; I know, I'll cite all those caster-martial disparity arguments!"
At least the thread isn't titled something like "Make your martials interesting using this one weird trick" or "Game designers HATE her!"
Lol yeah.
Heck, most martials have more flavor than most casters....
Its just the fighter who is kinda lacking... again.
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It also seems like a lot of people are using the names of the classes, and the archetypal images we have of them, as shorthand for which ones are inherently more flavorful. While there's nothing wrong with typical in that sense, we are all agreed that the name of your class has zero effect on the character you actually play, yes?
A cursed noble who takes on the features of a beast in battle could be a barbarian or a bloodrager. A watch detective could be a ranger, a rogue, or even a ninja just as easily as he could be an alchemist or an investigator. A paladin might be a member of a holy order arrayed in full plate, but it could just as easily be a farmer who found a calling, wandering the countryside with a staff and his trusty bow.
Making the argument that a class is inherently lacking in flavor because of the name we've chosen to call it makes me think that a lot of us haven't broken the association between a class name, and what the character actually is. They're two different things, and your concept is only limited by the rules, not by what you choose to call the class.
That argument's come up many times. I think the idea of 'class names' being in-game has caused quite a few threads to turn into arguments. (My short version: the concept of 'character class' does not exist, so nothing's stopping you from calling your Mounted Fury barbarian a 'cavalier', or your monk a 'fighter', or even your bard a 'wizard with a guitar', as long as you look that way to others. See Razmiran, entire nation of.)
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I've seen a lot of discussion about how martial characters are boring, and about half the time the main complaint seems to be that those in charge of the PC simply don't put in any more thought than that the character is a fighter, and thus he or she fights.Really? You've actually seen that?
I have. My John Smith example is a parody of just how extreme this gets.
Seriously. "Average Human Fighter" was the be all, end all depth of description of one such example. I could not get more than that, even with questioning.
I've seen a lot of discussion about how martial characters are boring, and about half the time the main complaint seems to be that those in charge of the PC simply don't put in any more thought than that the character is a fighter, and thus he or she fights.Really? You've actually seen that?I have. My John Smith example is a parody of just how extreme this gets.
Seriously. "Average Human Fighter" was the be all, end all depth of description of one such example. I could not get more than that, even with questioning.
They could even be bother saying "he is just aragon LotR"? (ie- somewhat handsome, muscular, a beard, somewhat gruff, etc.; basic action/fantasy movie hero)
Damn. That goes beyond lazy.
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I've seen a lot of discussion about how martial characters are boring, and about half the time the main complaint seems to be that those in charge of the PC simply don't put in any more thought than that the character is a fighter, and thus he or she fights.Really? You've actually seen that?I have. My John Smith example is a parody of just how extreme this gets.
Seriously. "Average Human Fighter" was the be all, end all depth of description of one such example. I could not get more than that, even with questioning.
They could even be bother saying "he is just aragon LotR"? (ie- somewhat handsome, muscular, a beard, somewhat gruff, etc.; basic action/fantasy movie hero)
Damn. That goes beyond lazy.
That above example inspired me to create my PFS CORE PC, John Smith.
Average Human Fighter, with Average stats.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I've seen a lot of discussion about how martial characters are boring, and about half the time the main complaint seems to be that those in charge of the PC simply don't put in any more thought than that the character is a fighter, and thus he or she fights.Really? You've actually seen that?I have. My John Smith example is a parody of just how extreme this gets.
Seriously. "Average Human Fighter" was the be all, end all depth of description of one such example. I could not get more than that, even with questioning.
I think you misread what I asked if he'd really seen.
I didn't ask if he'd really seen someone put no more thought into their character than "is fighter". Everybody's seen that.
No, I asked if he'd really seen that phenomenon be the main complaint in about half the discussions about the shortcomings of martials.
It's not necessarily a bad article, in fact there are a couple of good suggestions for beginning roleplayers or people who can't think up a backstory to save their life.
Personally though, I don't think there's any reason this should be an article aimed at "martials." There's nothing exclusively martial about any of those backgrounds, and someone bad at character building is going to have trouble no matter if they have a fighter or a wizard. If anything, trying to counter class stereotypes would be more in line with the point of this article (most classes do tend to be pigeonholed into certain backgrounds - Fighters are all sellswords, Barbarians are all tribesmen, Wizards are all mage school graduates).
Remember, the average face in the world, for a male, is a 28 year old vaguely Chinese man.
An averaged face is gorgeous.