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Right, people will probably feel this coming.....why?
A cleric in a scenario against the undead = channel them down, good right?
After saying 'hop over', i discovered the cleric was an Urgathoan cleric, with of course command undead.
I'm facing a dilemma here.
That is a potential scenario/challenge breaker, imo, if the cleric goes around enslaving the zombies. This is played at tier 3-4, the cleric has 4 HD.
As is, i've only said that, in theme of resident evil situation, controlling the undead is a backfire thing to do.
Because not only does it look suspicious to your team mates, but to the surviving theater goers as well.
It might be a boot in the rear of a PC who's likely built to do these things on convenience, but could one call GM veto and say it shouldn't be used in the scenario?
Opinions on a good approach are much appreciated, since as much as i don't want to outright refuse the player, this will probably break the scenario's challenge.
Thanks
Venture-Agent, Florida—Longwood
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Remember, at 4 HD he can only control his cleric level (4 hd) worth of undead, unless he has Undead Master which raises it to 8 hd.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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This is a scenario from the early iron age, lots of things break it. Those 3.5 clerics in heavy armor had a really bad time against our gunslinger for example. The BBEG died in one round on high tier. Seriously, this scenario is dated.
I advise changing your perspective. Think of it more as campy zombie-slaughtering instead of a serious scenario. Cheer on your players as they plow through it. Ham up the absurdity with the megaraptor zombie.
Really, it's very hard to challenge people with this scenario, so try to find the fun in a different direction. Emphasize zombies in their opera finery, panicked guests still commenting on PCs fashion sense in the middle of a gorefest and so forth.
Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic
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If an undead creature is under the control of another creature, you must make an opposed Charisma check whenever your orders conflict.
The cleric will have to make an opposed check every time he gives a command. It's not quite clear what happens if this check fails, but I'd have the power of the artifact return control to Fel Bustrani, AKA attack non-cultist living creatures.
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Aye, i am not the type to immediately ban something within legal options.
Since this has come up a lot lately it's worth noting. If it's a legal character, there is nothing you can do about it. As PFS GMs we have zero authority to ban anything legal. It's pretty darned easy to make a CORE play command undead cleric. That's the nature of running an old scenario.
One option is to talk to the player before hand and see if he/she has a different character, explaining that while you can't stop them from playing, you suspect that the scenario might not be as fun. Or perhaps a different take is rather than trying to lock yourself into a "resident evil" style scenario, see what kind of style the players themselves come up with. You might be surprised.
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I actually played this recently in CORE with a CORE "command undead" cleric. I think I was only 3rd level, as I would only "steal" 1 of the normal Zombies - but it was kind of funny to have two of the undead grappling each other while the other players danced around saying things like:
Fighter Player:"which one do I swing on? the one oozing green puss from the head wound, or the one with the icky pink stains?"
My Cleric: "heck, go ahead and swing on both of them - we need to put both of them down! I'll just see if I can grab the last one standing! after all 'there can be only one!'."
I was careful to ensure that all the undead were destroyed by the end of the scenario, as I was worried about some of the theater goers reactions to me commanding undead. It also probably helped that I was a cleric of Abadar and not Urgathoa...
overall it was great fun - and not any more overpowered than many other Control type spells... It actually was a greater problem for the PCs that I had negative channeling and not channel positive energy. I think it would have made us much more overpowering if I had been a positive channeler...
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But i am looking for an approach where running the scenario would still pose a fun challenge for the party, opposed to the zombies becoming a round-up-posse of the cleric and the rest of the party have to do nothing at all.
Sometimes you get characters that for whatever reason are a perfect fit to handle the challenge of the scenario. Let the player shine in that case and focus on telling the story with that in mind. You may be surprised at how it turns out.
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But i am looking for an approach where running the scenario would still pose a fun challenge for the party, opposed to the zombies becoming a round-up-posse of the cleric and the rest of the party have to do nothing at all.Sometimes you get characters that for whatever reason are a perfect fit to handle the challenge of the scenario. Let the player shine in that case and focus on telling the story with that in mind. You may be surprised at how it turns out.
but... this is odd. How is the cleric controlling more than one or two of the Zombies? Even a 5th level cleric can only get 5HD right? and that would be what? 2 standard Zombies OR one Bugbear Zombie?
And for this he gives up Positive Channeling - the ability to blast all the undead with 3d6 damage (at 5th level) several times (I get 7 channels I think).
I can still remember when I played this (with a Neg. Channeler) having to explain to one of the players that my Channels could heal the Zombies, but not the PCs...
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but... this is odd. How is the cleric controlling more than one or two of the Zombies? Even a 5th level cleric can only get 5HD right? and that would be what? 2 standard Zombies OR one Bugbear Zombie?
Precisely why I say let it play out according to the rules. The cleric gets to use the powers the player selected, but doesn't trivialize everything.
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but... this is odd. How is the cleric controlling more than one or two of the Zombies? Even a 5th level cleric can only get 5HD right? and that would be what? 2 standard Zombies OR one Bugbear Zombie?Precisely why I say let it play out according to the rules. The cleric gets to use the powers the player selected, but doesn't trivialize everything.
so my point was that perhaps the judge and/or player didn't know the rules concerning controlling undead. that the Cleric has a Hit Dice limitation?
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Remember, at 4 HD he can only control his cleric level (4 hd) worth of undead, unless he has Undead Master which raises it to 8 hd.
It is unlikely he is going to know the spells command undead or animate dead at 4th level for Undead Lord (note the words are italicized - those are spells - note the using Command Undead in the description- that is a feat name - feats are initial caps)
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Remember, at 4 HD he can only control his cleric level (4 hd) worth of undead, unless he has Undead Master which raises it to 8 hd.It is unlikely he is going to know the spells command undead or animate dead at 4th level for Undead Lord (note the words are italicized - those are spells - note the using Command Undead in the description- that is a feat name - feats are initial caps)
I assume you mean Undead Master. (Undead Lord is the archtype, and is banned in PFS anyway)
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Right, people will probably feel this coming.....why?
A cleric in a scenario against the undead = channel them down, good right?
After saying 'hop over', i discovered the cleric was an Urgathoan cleric, with of course command undead.I'm facing a dilemma here.
That is a potential scenario/challenge breaker, imo, if the cleric goes around enslaving the zombies. This is played at tier 3-4, the cleric has 4 HD.
Enjoy the insanity and be ready to think quickly on your toes. This is a rare opportunity to really have things go off the rails in a really fun way. Why would you want to stop it?
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I think a lot of the early season scenarios were already kind of fragile with regard to things not happening as anticipated, and that's only gotten worse.
As you know, the first lesson of any GM is "no plot survives contact with the players".
I've played and run Among the Living recently, both at high tier, and I think you're better off embracing the absurdity than trying to run it as a very serious adventure. If you give in to the madness you can have a great afternoon with it.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I think there needs to be a Life of Brian kind of scene where they get into a fight with the cultists from the Devil We Know series about who gets to ruin Taldor.
I would so play that.
(Visualizes insane zombies tripping over trip wires and prat falling to their doom... Sort of a Night of the living dead meets three stooges...)
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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If I ever decide to run a cleric of Zyphus, I may have to do what I did with my worshiper of Groetus. Run all three scenarios, and just assert "Yeah, you don't remember him being along on those missions, but he seems to know an awful lot about what went down." (Aka, he was on the other side at the time.)
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I've been thinking about making a Zyphus cleric, with the motto "accidents will happen". He'd fervently believe that the only way to save your loved ones from horrible accidental deaths is to ensure Zyphus is glutted on the deaths of everything the Pathfinders encounter. He'd protest against the disarming of traps, except by triggering them with hapless creatures such as goblins or summoned mounts.
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I've been thinking about making a Zyphus cleric, with the motto "accidents will happen". He'd fervently believe that the only way to save your loved ones from horrible accidental deaths is to ensure Zyphus is glutted on the deaths of everything the Pathfinders encounter. He'd protest against the disarming of traps, except by triggering them with hapless creatures such as goblins or summoned mounts.
EXCEPT!
If you know the trap is there and trigger it, it's no longer an accident, IS IT?
*cackles maniacally*
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic
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I played through this scenario with my Cleric of Pharasma 3/ Necromancer 3.
We had allot of fun. My character was using the "turn Undead" feat to make them run away.....and the "Command Undead" feat to gain control of the stragglers that remained.
I kept mispronouncing the name of Zyphus as Zyphilis :)
good times.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I've been thinking about making a Zyphus cleric, with the motto "accidents will happen". He'd fervently believe that the only way to save your loved ones from horrible accidental deaths is to ensure Zyphus is glutted on the deaths of everything the Pathfinders encounter. He'd protest against the disarming of traps, except by triggering them with hapless creatures such as goblins or summoned mounts.EXCEPT!
If you know the trap is there and trigger it, it's no longer an accident, IS IT?
*cackles maniacally*
Clearly you are an Unbeliever who thinks his School-Learned Intelligence is a substitute for the Wisdom we gain from Experiencing the Grim Harvestman's many Wonders. Tssk. Trying to Bluff us with Paradoxes. Little do you realize those are Accidents... of the Mind!!!
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Zyphus is a pretty absurd deity all by himself. Every time I run this series the players ask "Wait, if they set up the accidental deaths are they really accidents anymore?" We just chalk it up to crazy cultists.
We ran into that very question when we played this mod, and we just applied enough handwavium to it until it disappeared.
Ironically, through a series of botches and crits, the party's barbarian ended up dying in this mod. I credit that lone kill as the sacrifice to Zyphus, as a lot of things had to go wrong for him to die, and then proceeded to go wrong in that very fashion.
