Snap Shot / Improved Snap Shot as ranger combat-style feats?

[Bondsman]

A player in my campaign is currently a 5th level spirit ranger who wants to become an "archery hyperspecialist" (his term). He asked whether I would let him take Snap Shot and Improved Snap Shot as ranger archery-combat-style feats.

My player wrote:

So what I propose is that, much like Improved Precise Shot, I gain access to Improved Snap Shot at level 6 as a ranger combat-style bonus feat. It's not even as big of a stretch as Improved Precise Shot (normally base attack +11), because Improved Snap Shot normally only requires base attack +9. So the proposed revised list of eligible ranger archery combat-style bonus feats would be:

1st: Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Snap Shot
6th: Improved Precise Shot, Manyshot, Point Blank Master (APG), Improved Snap Shot (UC)
10th: Pinpoint Targeting, Shot on the Run

My inclination is to allow Snap Shot at 6th level and Improved Snap Shot at 10th. Snap Shot requires BAB +6, which seems comparable to Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Manyshot. Both require BAB +6 and are available to rangers at 6th level.

Any suggestions?

Also, I read some discussion in these forums that Improved Snap Shot may be overpowered and perhaps shouldn't be allowed at all. Thoughts on this feat? Thank you.

[Avoron]

There's actually a combat style that already has Snap Shot and Improved Snap Shot as options: the Erastil Faithful combat style from Inner Sea Combat.

Faithful (Erastil) wrote:

If the ranger selects faithful (erastil), he can choose from the following list whenever he gains a combat style feat: Deadly Aim, Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, and Precise Shot. At 6th level, he adds Clustered Shots and Snap Shot to the list. At 10th level, he adds Improved Snap Shot and Pinpoint Targeting to the list.

Would that work for your purposes?

If not, I would still strongly advise that you restrict the feats to levels 6 and 10 respectively.

[Bondsman]

Avoron wrote:

Would that work for your purposes?

Yes, thanks, that works! It gives me ammo to go back to him and say that his proposal is overpowered, but here's a reasonable alternative.

Have you (or others) had experience with Improved Snap Shot? Has it seemed overpowered? I'm inclined to think that it's not a big deal, because he'll still only get one AoO per round. But please let me know if you think otherwise.

[Avoron]

I've never seen it used in game, but I'd allow it, especially after the Ultimate Combat errata that reduced its reach from 15 feet to 10.
Now it isn't all that much better for attacks of opportunity than a reach weapon, with the advantage of Dex synergy with Combat Reflexes and the disadvantage of no 1.5x Str/Power Attack to damage. Its primary draw is simply the ability to attack with a bow on your turn and take attacks of opportunity afterward, which isn't particularly overpowered given that it requires being close to your enemies, giving up one of the biggest advantages of archery.

Personally, I like that feat chain a lot. It gives archers a bit more versatility and inspires more creative tactics than just pumping out damage on every full attack.

I might consider not allowing it with guns, because every attack of opportunity would be against touch AC with Dex to damage (for gunslingers) and Deadly Aim on top. Plus, guns in general tend to work better at close range, so the character isn't giving up as much tactically for the opportunity.

Still, a three feat investment should give something useful in return, and when they get it at 9th level it will still be outshone by 5th level spells (and soon by pouncing barbarians). I'd probably allow it even with guns unless it started being a problem.

[DinosaursOnIce]

Bondsman wrote:

Avoron wrote:

Would that work for your purposes?

Yes, thanks, that works! It gives me ammo to go back to him and say that his proposal is overpowered, but here's a reasonable alternative.

Have you (or others) had experience with Improved Snap Shot? Has it seemed overpowered? I'm inclined to think that it's not a big deal, because he'll still only get one AoO per round. But please let me know if you think otherwise.

I've not seen it in play, but the real trick is to get combat reflexes then. I don't personally see it as being too overpowered, he's an archer so the amount of damage he does per shot is a little on the lower end (they make their bread and butter by making lots of attacks). It's still a very good tactic and will help make things die faster but I don't see it being crazy (it's also fairly expensive since it takes 3 feats to fully utilize so there's a decent oppertunity cost associated with it).

[Zwordsman]

The only time I've ever had squiffyines with snapshot (i've used it a couple times though most of the time i regreted it except this one) was with a scatter gun on a gunslinger.

Effecitvely I shotgunned and hit whole groups repeatidly.
buuutt it was nothing broken it was just fun and effectively so.

I can't see it being much of an issue with a bow or crossbow. No scattering or anything like that. Plus its within 15feet max (excluding bodyguard stuff) so they're about to smack him around anyway.

I actually doubt it'll come up that often or in particularly big ways.

That being said. Just follow the preestablished style levels for them.