So I'm running a Mythic campaign, and I'm finding the Archmage/Heirophant ability 'Flexible Counterspell' to be more than a little problematic. Both the party cleric and arcanist have taken Flexible Counterspell, and as a result, completely shutdown any NPC spell casters.
This is a problem, because at least one player in my group has become so overwhelmingly hard-to-hit in melee, that the only way I can take him down is magic. Any suggestions for overcoming Flexible Counterspell, or barring that, any suggestions on tweaking the ability to make it a little less dominating?
Weirdly, I have different text for both, but the end result is the same. Flexible Counterspell (SU) wrote: Your mythic power enhances your ability to counter spells. As an immediate action, you can expend one use of mythic power to attempt to counter a spell. Upon using this ability, you must identify the spell with a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell's level). If you correctly identify the spell, you can expend a spell or spell slot of a level equal to or higher than the spell being cast to counter the spell. Flexible Counterspell (SU) wrote: Your mythic power enhances your ability to counter others' spells. As an immediate action, you can expend one use of mythic power to attempt to counter a spell. This ability otherwise works like readying an action to counter a spell, except instead of using the exact spell or dispel magic, you can instead expend a spell or spell slot of a level equal to or higher than the target spell. Both still work the same way though, I think.
That being said, I'm not sure why this is a problem. It's an immediate action, so 1/round and no swift next round (and this is a big deal with mythic, lots of swift actions). They still need to make the spellcraft check and expend the spell slot. Great for shutting down 1 or 2 spellcasters in return for burning through spell slots. Remember, opponents don't really need to conserve spell slots. They get to throw their highest level slot every round (because they may not get more than a few). Your players, not so much. Especially not if they plan on actually casting their spells. Throw more than 2 things that can cast (not really hard at higher levels, lots of SLAs) or don't let the players rest as often (Recuperation still takes an hour, plus I think they'd need another hour to reprepare spells?). Actually, the repreparing spells thing is going to be a big problem for the cleric. They can only prepare at a certain time of day, no amount of "rest" will let them fully reprepare. They'd have to do it for 15 minutes each. And it seems to imply the arcanist needs to spend an hour preparing before spells per day are refreshed (might just be fluff, no idea).
The character would have to be aware of the spell being cast to try and counter it.
Immediate Actions are once per round which means the quickened spells should still be going off.
It's an ability that requires a point of mythic power each time it's used, if you're up in the higher mythic tiers where this isn't that painful, you're just butting into the known balance difficulties of that level of play.
If all else fails, throw in three more casters.
I've been enforcing distance penalties on the DCs to identify the spells, which has helped some, but the Arcanist still seems to nail them pretty regularly...
I've been guilty of the 'One big fight a day' approach to adventuring. I may need to mix things up a bit and throw multiple encounters to wear them down.
Cast a crappy spell.
Cast a quickened nasty spell.
Of course if they're both using it, then they'll just counter both spells.
So add another caster. Do the same thing with them. If they really want to use their mythic power to counter 2 spells a round, let them waste it and just throw 3 spells a round at them.
Try enemies with spell-like abilities rather than spells? Demons etc. They can't be counterspelled if I understand correctly, Flexible Counterspell or no.
Of course, throwing 3+ spells a round at them is going to lead to Escalation of Force problems. Though it sounds like you're already experiencing that.
It's natural to want to defend against attacks. Sounds like they're already doing that.
So you've got a few options.
1. Continue to attack them, harder, in an area where they're obviously already fortified.
2. Come up with another avenue of attack.
option 1 can lead to death, frankly. Not necessarily of course, but continuing to hammer an area they're continuing to fortify will go until you're completely out of tricks and can't defeat them at all from that angle or until you accidentally overestimate the required force and kill them all.
option 2 is harder. If they're completely shutting down magic and the other guy has a really high AC, you don't have many options left. There are some.
A. How much would touch attacks screw up the big guy's day? You could toss bands of Pistolero Gunslingers at them until they puke (or other touch attacks). If you're careful, this is the best way to strike a high AC, tough target while still being particularly careful about damage output.
B. Why the hell is anyone attacking the big guy in the first place? That seems silly. Beat the crap out of those counter-spellers. They're probably much softer targets. If the guy wants to be a big lug of unhittable AC, let him. Find something else to hit. I don't imagine anyone would want to keep whacking at the big armored guy when there's some dude in a dress casting spells behind him. Attack in waves and from multiple angles. First wave straight on, let them establish a line, then hit them from the sides/rear with the rest of the encounter. If you want to make the big guy sweat, some times the easiest way to do it is to make his friends sweat.
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avr wrote: Try enemies with spell-like abilities rather than spells? Demons etc. They can't be counterspelled if I understand correctly, Flexible Counterspell or no. Well I'll be damned. Avr's right.
CORE RULE BOOK pg 221 wrote: Spellike Abilities
Usually a spellike ability works just like the spell of that name. A spelllike ability has no verbal, somantic or material components, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spellike ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somantic component
A spellike ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless otherwise noted in the ability or the spells description. In all other ways, the spellike ability functions just like a spell.
Spellike abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do no function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Spellike abilities cannot be used to counterspell nor can they be counterspelled.
Some creatures actually cast arcane spells as sorcerors do, using components when required. Some creatures have both spellike abilities and actual spellcasting power.
So there you go.
Apparently this was subject to an errata rabbit hole. 4th printing cleared it up. Spell-Like Abilities cannot be counterspelled.
If the AC of the one character is standard armor AC, I might suggest aiming for touch occasionally. Gunslinger and bomb based alchemist can handle this, along with mages who focus in touch spells. Alchemist could be really nice if made with debilitating via effects in mind. Plus it'd be AOE, so you might challenge the rest of the group as well.
SageDarius wrote: So I'm running a Mythic campaign, and I'm finding the Archmage/Heirophant ability 'Flexible Counterspell' to be more than a little problematic. Both the party cleric and arcanist have taken Flexible Counterspell, and as a result, completely shutdown any NPC spell casters.
This is a problem, because at least one player in my group has become so overwhelmingly hard-to-hit in melee, that the only way I can take him down is magic. Any suggestions for overcoming Flexible Counterspell, or barring that, any suggestions on tweaking the ability to make it a little less dominating?
You made a critical mistake. You gave mythic to your players instead of keeping it for yourself to add to your monsters or NPCs. You also did not take into account that the designers of Mythic did not, could not, account for even more broken combinations made possible by the hybrid classes.
You are simply going to have to accept the fact that your party will essentially roll over any non-mythic encounter they face from now on, unless it overlevels them by a truly ridiculous amount.
You simply can not build encounters for a mythic group the way you would for non-mythic players. Solo spellcasters will be wiped out... even if they are mythic. You have to out-munchkin your players with over the top monster design combined with mythic abilities. You also need to learn how to use other aspects of encounter design... such as environment and hazards.
I'm running Forgotten Realms, so gunslingers aren't really an option... Alchemist is something I haven't tried yet, I may give that a shot.
And yea, I let the Mythic cat out of the bag without fully understanding the implications. It's one of a few mistakes I made with this campaign. Fortunately, it's wrapping up soon.
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