Ok so we all know Roll With it is a Goblin feat that lets you convert damage into distance moved should you make the required check.
And we all know if you roll into an object or creature your size or larger (Small and up) you take only 1d4 points of damage. So you could convert 25 dmg into a 1d4 dmg. Fair trade
But could you maybe make use of the rolling into a creature larger then you if you had Limb Climber from Rogue's Vexing Dodger Archetype.
What I mean to ask if, is there anything allowing or stopping you from making a climb check when you roll into a person that would allow or prevent you from basically rolling up their body using a climb check? For that matter could you make a climb check on the roll to roll up the wall?
I am trying to imagine this goblin build that is just very annoyingly scrappy
No obvious hard rules, but the idea behind Roll with It is an uncontrolled movement. As a GM i wouldn't allow you to convert that uncontrolled movement into a climb.
Bumping this, in the hopes more people add to it.
Have goblin, am curious.
You more or less stop as far as I know.
I never have to deal with this, since I ban this trite at all of my tables, so, yeah, you're SOL.
If I was the GM, and I somehow let you use this feat, I'd tell you that it is uncontrolled movement and therefore you cannot make any checks in conjunction with the movement. You are the ball, your enemy's attack is the bat.
If you do decide to use this feat, be prepared for when every single enemy in the game that you will ever encounter starts having ranged weapons.
You more or less stop as far as I know.
I never have to deal with this, since I ban this trite at all of my tables, so, yeah, you're SOL.If I was the GM, and I somehow let you use this feat, I'd tell you that it is uncontrolled movement and therefore you cannot make any checks in conjunction with the movement. You are the ball, your enemy's attack is the bat.
If you do decide to use this feat, be prepared for when every single enemy in the game that you will ever encounter starts having ranged weapons.
Well if that was the case I think that would make you a vindictive GM and the fact that you would punish all the players. Now if you have all ranged weapons, then the melee foes who get close will wreck you outright. What then? Ban their melee weapons?
That seems like a weird statement to make. Why would he have to ban melee weapons? There's no reason an enemy that knows your tactics wouldn't have both means of mundane combat available.
Think it was meant to be well do you ban melee if someone is a melee beast. But it makes no sense because if you had said what if he had a Archer character who was just wrecking shit he would have to ban ranged due to being op.
Off track on the 5th post. 2nd post after bump. Give yourselves a pat on the back, but immediately switch to applause.
Well if that was the case I think that would make you a vindictive GM and the fact that you would punish all the players. Now if you have all ranged weapons, then the melee foes who get close will wreck you outright. What then? Ban their melee weapons?You more or less stop as far as I know.
I never have to deal with this, since I ban this trite at all of my tables, so, yeah, you're SOL.If I was the GM, and I somehow let you use this feat, I'd tell you that it is uncontrolled movement and therefore you cannot make any checks in conjunction with the movement. You are the ball, your enemy's attack is the bat.
If you do decide to use this feat, be prepared for when every single enemy in the game that you will ever encounter starts having ranged weapons.
Let me put it this way, if you have this feat and a ring of Freedom of Movement, and you are built correctly, you become immune to melee attacks. Me and a fried tested this. He fought the Tarrasque—you know, that world ending monstrosity?—and if it only used melee attacks he could solo it (CR 25) at level 20.
The feat is broken, which results in "multiple monsters must attack you on the same round to have the slightest chance of hitting hurting you, since when one does hit you will probably fly out of their melee range," and, "monsters are not stupid. The moment they realize they can't hurt you in melee, they will switch up their tactics. E.G. start shooting you, instead."
The only thing you need to worry about when you have this feat and stacked acrobatics is being grappled. Ring of Freedom of Movement counters that. This feat breaks AC. You can make the world's most invincible wizard with this feat.
You can say I'm vindictive all you want, but if you bring something that is going to f@@K up my game, to my game, I'm going to tell you to remove it. If you don't, then we play chess where you have one piece and I have unlimited pieces. Alternatively, I purposefully design dungeons to heavily limit the usefullness of Roll With It. It is a great feat in open areas, but it is beyond trash in enclosed spaces.
Well if that was the case I think that would make you a vindictive GM and the fact that you would punish all the players.I'm not punishing them all, just you. In my game, you would easily have a week's heads up that you can't use the feat, and therefore you would, by my ban list (which contains only 1 item: "Roll With It," would be breaking the table rules, you special snowflake, you.
Now if you have all ranged weapons, then the melee foes who get close will wreck you outright.Enemies would have melee weapons as well. Check out the Cestus. You put it on at the beginning of the day, and you can still use the hand it is on. However, as a free action you can let go of whatever it is currently holding and attack with the cestus. Every switch hitter character ever should have one.
What then? Ban their melee weapons?
I would love this. "Hey guys, so I'm banning melee weapons. No one can use them. Instead, we're playing a game all about gunslingers, so pick whatever gun or ranged weapon toting archetype you can find, and be ready by this coming Sunday. Its Time To Find Out, who is The Good, The Bad and...The Ugly. *queue western music*
Let me put this a different way so you can understand.
"If you walked into a goblin village and say, 'Now, villains, you shall fall to my Mighty adventuring party,' then proceeded to not be able to harm any of the little bastards due to them flying around every time you hit them, you would probably start to get really annoyed. The next time you came to fight them, you would probably ensure everyone has a ranged weapon and only uses that."
Let me add an addendum here: If you are playing a relatively harmless and quirky character, such as a Cha Bard or a Healbot Cleric that isn't actually going to be fighting the enemy, then I wouldn't have a problem with this feat. If you are a joke in combat, then it can be funny as enemies attack you, then, when you fly away, they fight the real combatants. The problem, however, is that everyone I have played with who has used this feat has used it on a hyper deadly character that only needs to use one standard action to be dangerous.
If this is on your non-combat oracle of life social god, then no worries, it is probably funny. If it is on your super-wizard of doom, it is probably going to be an issue.
Overall, it is easier to Ban it on players, and, if I so choose, implement it on joke characters that the players can control.
You could also say it becomes an "all or nothing" scenario. I either encourage everyone to use it, and have the PCs fight in a goblin civil war with the bounciest combatants ever, which can result in comedic gold, or I ban it.
From what I've gathered, this tends to be a trend.
He fought the Tarrasque—you know, that world ending monstrosity?—and if it only used melee attacks he could solo it (CR 25) at level 20.
Why would the Tarrasque only use melee attacks? Also, as a DM, I'd rule that Roll With It isn't applicable vs. Awesome Blow, since that attack is already utilizing forced movement in (virtually) the same way Roll With It does.
-snip-
Let me put it this way, if you have this feat and a ring of Freedom of Movement, and you are built correctly, you become immune to melee attacks. Me and a fried tested this. He fought the Tarrasque—you know, that world ending monstrosity?—and if it only used melee attacks he could solo it (CR 25) at level 20.The feat is broken, which results in "multiple monsters must attack you on the same round to have the slightest chance of hitting hurting you, since when one does hit you will probably fly out of their melee range," and, "monsters are not stupid. The moment they realize they can't hurt you in melee, they will switch up their tactics. E.G. start shooting you, instead."
The only thing you need to worry about when you have this feat and stacked acrobatics is being grappled. Ring of Freedom of Movement counters that. This feat breaks AC. You can make the world's most invincible wizard with this feat.
-snip-
This is laughable.
The feat Roll With It is decent at low levels, and garbage later on.You are staggered after using it.
It eats your immediate/swift for the round.
There is a limit to the roll, your base speed.
I think most enemies can outcharge, if not outright move faster than, your 30ft goblin speed.
You still provoke while rolling, and you can only roll in straight lines.
How did the Tarrasque (A disappointingly weak creature mind you. I love Mr.T, but you can solo him at level 13 with the "right build".)
not hit through Roll With It?
Custom Items?
Remember the DC to block a single strike is 5+damageDealt.
Hell, the Tarrasque could walk up to your roller, wait a round, initiate a FullRoundAttack.
Go ahead, provoke by casting in melee, or running.
Or full round him.
Why should he care?
Here's how it goes:
We assume Roll With It auto succeeds on blow one, cuz I'm nice like that.
Even though the average damage (DC is 5+damage) for the Tarrasque's attacks are as follows:
Bite: Min: 19 Average: 33 Max: 47
Claw: Min: 16 Average: 21.5 Max: 27
Gore: Min: 16 Average: 20.5 Max: 25
Slap: Min: 10 Average: 20.5 Max: 31
Note: None of these even factor in crits :D
Note2: Or PowerAttack. Which Mr.T has. It hurts.
Especially that 30% crit chance on the bite for x3.
Oof.
Average of 99 on a crit bite.
Minimum of 57.
Max of 141.
Gobby rolls x feet, where x is his movement.
Cool, 30 feet away, or 60 if using enhanced base speed.
If he moves 30 feet, he's still in range of the Tarrasque.
If he moves 60 feet, he's still in range of the Tarrasque(Tail Slap).
Oh, he's also used his swift/immediate, and is staggered.
So broken.
The Tarrasque can also throw his spines, though you mentioned that you assumed only melee attacks for your test.
Just as an FYI, removing the counter to a feat from your test doesn't help your point.
It demonstrates the lack of a problem, that you have to actually remove a capability of the enemy for your tactic to succeed.
TLDR; Roll With It is hilarious, and decent to good at low levels depending on build, then becomes garbage as damage scales past acrobatics and other abilities come into play.
Really you only ban roll with it? Seriously? So you let in Sacred Geometry?
Really you only ban roll with it? Seriously? So you let in Sacred Geometry?
No one has used Sacred Geometry, yet, so I haven't seen how it acts in game. Many people have used Roll With It, which is why I eventually banned it.
Until I play a game with someone who actually uses Sacred Geometry, I wont know for sure if I should ban it or not. The people in my gaming groups do know that things can be banned after a session if I find them particularly egregious to the game's central designs, and therefore they don't have problems if things do get banned. They just know that they get a free complete rebuild.
On a side note: what about this obscure feat that you've probably never heard about—must try to deflect and obfuscate the argument at hand.—
For a while I had a guy who more or less tried to get things intentionally banned by taking them to the extremes. We found really cool things, like the Arcane Trickster Gun Using Rogue of Death and Despair, that can more or less kill anything after a certain level.
He was fun. We all played in each others games trying to find ways to get things banned, hence where the acrobatic goblin god of invincibility came from.
As to the OP:
Per the RAW, Roll With It is a straight line.
Can't do a 90 degree turn and launch up that nearby Minotaur ramp.
As per my opinion, I see no mechanical imbalance unless it breaks someone's immersion.
You do still provoke when climbing the creature though.
Unless you climb the one who hit you, Roll With It does say you get to pick the direction...
Now I want a goblin rogue who rolls up anyone who hits them and pokes them in the eye.
Edit: Sacred Geometry is legitimately scary.
Depending on the person, it can also take quite a bit of time.
No flak for banning that one.
Really you only ban roll with it? Seriously? So you let in Sacred Geometry?No one has used Sacred Geometry, yet, so I haven't seen how it acts in game. Many people have used Roll With It, which is why I eventually banned it.
Until I play a game with someone who actually uses Sacred Geometry, I wont know for sure if I should ban it or not. The people in my gaming groups do know that things can be banned after a session if I find them particularly egregious to the game's central designs, and therefore they don't have problems if things do get banned. They just know that they get a free complete rebuild.
On a side note: what about this obscure feat that you've probably never heard about—must try to deflect and obfuscate the argument at hand.—
For a while I had a guy who more or less tried to get things intentionally banned by taking them to the extremes. We found really cool things, like the Arcane Trickster Gun Using Rogue of Death and Despair, that can more or less kill anything after a certain level.
He was fun. We all played in each others games trying to find ways to get things banned, hence where the acrobatic goblin god of invincibility came from.
Yeah I am not seeing Roll with It doing anything close to what you have said it does which to me seems like you don't understand the feat.
At level 20 you can have 20 ranks in Acrobatics and lets assume you have I don't know a 20 in Dex so that is a +28 modifier on your Acrobatics roll. Now you roll a 1d20 for your check and roll a Nat 20. Awesome right. That gives you if you apply the +10 to the roll you get 58. The DC to avoid an attack that deals 60 damage is 65... if your max roll is 58 well you take the 60 dmg now don't you?
So how the hell did you build a goblin that could tank the blows of the Terrasque?
I'm not entirely certain where you are getting 60 damage from. Even if the Tarrasque rolls max on all of its damage rolls with its most powerful attack, it can only deal 47 (8+8+8+8+15) with a single attack. This feat kicks in when you take damage, and you are allowed to choose what individual attack you use this on. In short, this means that even on a full attack the Tarrasque will get to try to hit with its bite and tail slap, since its average damage will knock the Goblin out of range.
Using a creature's critical damage is rather foolish, if that is how you got to 60 damage, since you could just build a two-weapon fighter NPC that does far more damage with a greataxe or scythe.
There are plenty of items that increase your acrobatics, there are feats that increase this skill, and it is extremely easy to build into being an acrobatic god.
I'll be "nice" and show you some of the things that can increase your Acrobatics mod, but also I'll give you a partial build.
Wizard (Monkey familiar: +3 acrobatics)
Skill Focus: Acrobatics (+3 and later +6 acrobatics)
Various traits (+1 Acrobatics, is class skill)
Goblin alt racial: Tree Runner (+4 acrobatics)
Acrobatic (+2 and later +4 acrobatics)
You have to have Roll With It to use the feat, so skill focus wont kick in until level 3.
Level 1 (No magic items, Roll With It): +8 acrobatics, but if you put at least 1 rank in it this increases to +12 acrobatics if the trait you took makes acrobatics a class skill (3+1+4+1+3).
Level 3 (No magic items, Roll With It, Skill Focus: Acrobatics): +11 acrobatics, if you have ranks equal to your HD in Acrobatics and the trait that makes it a class skill then you're sitting at +17 (3+3+1+4+3+3).
Level 5 (No magic items, Roll With It, Skill Focus: Acrobatics, Acrobatic): +13 acrobatics, if you have ranks equal to your HD in Acrobatics and the trait that makes it a class skill then you're sitting at +21 (3+3+1+4+2+5+3).
I recall finding some magic items that grant a flat bonus to acrobatics, but I can't find them at the moment.
So, lets take this to lvl 20.
(3+6+1+4+4+3+20) +41.
Cool. So, we have a minimum roll of 42, since skills to not auto-fail on a roll of 1. This is also without dexterity even factored in at all.
On an average roll (10) this jumps to 51, so an enemy has to hit you for more than 51 damage to even hurt you.
With dexterity factored in we can see some other things come into play. If the character is a Wizard, we can probably assume there will be some extra buffs, but we wont cover those, yet.
Lets be nice and not min-max to insane degrees.
Most groups I've played with use 20 point buy.
8, 20 Dex, 10, 16 Int, 10, 8 (This factors in the Goblin Racial attribute mods).
Now, lets apply all of our attribute ups into Dex, so dex increases to 25. Add in a belt of incredible dexterity, we go up to 31. If we use Reduce Person it increases to 33. (33-10)/2=11.5, or just 11.
Ok, cool. So lets add this to our base attribute.
(3+6+1+4+4+3+20+11) +52. So, minimum roll of 53 (roll of 1). Average roll is 62 (roll of 10).
Based on these calculations, the max roll you can obtain is around 72, so you could, theoretically, negate an attack that deals 67 damage if you rolled a nat 20.
The vast majority of enemies you will encounter at lower and mid levels will not do enough damage in a single attack to overcome your acrobatics check. Worse is that the vast majority of enemies will have no answer if they are melee bruisers. You also need to keep in mind that most enemies overall damage is based on the average damage of multiple attacks (this is how monsters are built by the monster builder rules that Paizo uses, btw), and therefore will be even more easily negated by this feat.
Regardless of what you decide (Broken or not), just show your players the above numbers so they can use them against you in your games.
Cheers.
Even if the Tarrasque rolls max on all of its damage rolls with its most powerful attack, it can only deal 47 (8+8+8+8+15) with a single attack.Wait...did you not factor Power Attack into your test? The Tarrasque's Bite averages 49 damage with Power Attack, with a max of 63. I think we're getting to the root of the problem: if you just tunnel vision onto the attack stats of a monster, you'll never be utilizing it to its intended potential, which is why your friend was able to steamroll it. All monsters have feats, senses, special abilities, etc that are factored into its CR. Ignoring them effectively lowers that monster's CR.
Based on these calculations, the max roll you can obtain is around 72, so you could, theoretically, negate an attack that deals 67 damage if you rolled a nat 20.
The vast majority of enemies you will encounter at lower and mid levels will not do enough damage in a single attack to overcome your acrobatics check. Worse is that the vast majority of enemies will have no answer if they are melee bruisers. You also need to keep in mind that most enemies overall damage is based on the average damage of multiple attacks (this is how monsters are built by the monster builder rules that Paizo uses, btw), and therefore will be even more easily negated by this feat.
Regardless of what you decide (Broken or not), just show your players the above numbers so they can use them against you in your games.
Cheers.
All useless against ranged attacks, which the Tarrasque has. Again, you're stacking the deck in favor of your own opinion. I heard Antimagic Field is being banned from PFS after some minmaxing madman used it on a party made entirely of Wizards. We were all pretty shocked to realize how OP it was. Against all Wizards. No one could think of a way to fix this problem in the future, so they're just removing it. Now all those parties of all Wizards can keep playing the game as it was intended: with all Wizards.
I'm not entirely certain where you are getting 60 damage from. Even if the Tarrasque rolls max on all of its damage rolls with its most powerful attack, it can only deal 47 (8+8+8+8+15) with a single attack. This feat kicks in when you take damage, and you are allowed to choose what individual attack you use this on. In short, this means that even on a full attack the Tarrasque will get to try to hit with its bite and tail slap, since its average damage will knock the Goblin out of range.
Using a creature's critical damage is rather foolish, if that is how you got to 60 damage, since you could just build a two-weapon fighter NPC that does far more damage with a greataxe or scythe.
-snip-
You immediately move in a straight line in a direction of your choice this number of feet (rounded up to the nearest 5-foot-square), halting if you reach a distance equal to your actual speed.
Space 30 ft.; Reach 30 ft. (60 ft. with tail slap)
Again, still in range of the other strikes with a 30 or 60 foot movement speed.
The monsters built by Paizo also vary between many attacks, and single heavy strikes.The first example of the top of my head is of course, The V-Strike T-Rex.
*Waits for him to post*
PA on Mr.T just let's him add 16 damage to all previous listed values.
Oh, and I woudn't call a 15-20/x3 crit range "foolish".
It's a 90% increase in decrease from a never crit swing.
A similar comparison would be a fighter's capstone using improvedCritical/keen with a 18-20/x2 weapon.