This one has some things new, some things old, and some things borrowed. And... a few things not filled in yet.
Mostly looking for criticism of and suggestion for the Discipline and Training class features, but feel free to repond to any portion of it.
On the "no more than half" wording, I completely agree. My first try was some more like "The fighter cannot choose the same training twice in a row" but it was even more clunky. I will see what I can do about improving the current one.
First off, thank you for your feedback. Second, that post above wasn't supposed to appear. Sorry!
In revisiting your suggestions I have become aware of a giant hole in my current wording for Training. By the current wording, a fighter won't be able to take the second training of a specific type until he picks his fourth training. Not the intention. The intention was to be able to spread it around or to alternate between two. That has to get fixed right away.
As far as weapons training specifically, I intend that there are no more weapon groups and no more choices you are stuck with. I want the fighter to be able to practice with a new set of weapons every day if he wants, while the the spellcasters are prepping spells. I will revisit this as well and see if I can improve the wording.
I can remove the no more than half bit from discipline. No biggie. As far as the other thing, I'll think on it. Maybe the pseudo ability points will only be gained once per ability score.
At level 18, the character will have acquired Training six times, and there are currently 4-6 training types. Four are in for sure, while the othert two are up in the air. Regardless, maybe I should make the requirement that it is a training he has selected at least once.
Ah... I want to see this one, but I can't download stuff from where I am. :(
I'll check it out tonight and give you my feedback.
Suggestions:
Training (Ex):
At 3rd level and every three levels thereafter, a fighter chooses one of the following training types to put a rank in and gains it's benefit. No single training type can have more ranks than his fighter level dived by 4 (round down, minimum 1).
Then re-word all the trainings to deal with ranks.
Weapon Training:
The first time a rank is put into this training, the fighter chooses one weapon. Whenever he attacks with this weapon, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls.
Each time a fighter puts another rank in this training, he chooses another weapon to get a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls and the bonus for each previously chosen weapon increases by 1.
Once per day, the fighter can spend an hour training with different weapons and change what weapons these decreasing bonuses apply to. For example, a fighter with 3 ranks in Weapon Training could have chosen Long Sword as his first choice for +3, then Longbow for +2, and Warhammer for +1 and change the bonuses to: +3 for Longbow, +2 for Flails and +1 for Short Swords.
I just noticed that you upped the strength of Bravery and also didn't notice Resilience before. Resilience seems a little OP. I never really like Bravery, so here's a suggestion. Drop Bravery and Resilience for something like this:
Resilience:
At 2nt level and every 4 levels beyond 2nt, a fighter chooses one of the following bonuses. Each bonus can be selected more than once with their abilities stacking.
- +1 bonus on Will saves against fear.
- +1 bonus on Will saves against mind-affecting effects.
- +1 bonus on saving throws against effects that cause the exhausted, fatigued, or staggered conditions or temporary penalties to ability scores.
- +1 bonus on saving throws made against effects that cause him to become paralyzed, slowed, or entangled.
- +1 bonus on saving throws made against energy drain and death effects.
- +1 bonus on initiative checks.
- +1 dodge bonus to AC against ranged attacks.
- Choose a combat maneuver, the fighter gains a +1 bonus to CMB when performing and a +1 bonus to CMD against that maneuver.
- Choose a weapon, reduce the attack penalty for non-proficiency or for doing non-lethal damage with that weapon by 1.
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Saves: I still think Fighters should have good Reflex saves. There is no reason for they not to. This is the guy who faces supernatural opponents every day using only his body and his will. He should be a paragon of physical training.
: A fighter can take a move
action to gain the benefit of a combat feat he doesn't
possess. This effect lasts for 1 minute. The fighter must
meet all the feat's prerequisites. He may use this ability a
number of times per day equal to 3 + 1/2 her fighter level
(minimum 1).
Minor nitpick: Wouldn't it be minimum 3, anyway? You can have negative Fighter levels, after all. Other than that, no problems with the ability.
Weapon Training is nice, but a unnecessarily convoluted, IMO.
The fighter can use his Charisma in place of hisConstitution to determine the negative hit points at
which he dies, and for stabilization checks.
Wouldn't it be simpler, more useful and more thematic to allow the Fighter to use Cha for will saves? It's not like Cha is an amazingly useful ability score... Hell! Even the Disciplines for the other attributes are considerably better. Why keep Cha as a dump stat?
Other than that, I like the homebrew. I'd prefer if the Brawler aspects wer option, rather than a core feature of the class, but that's personal preference. Your way works pretty well.
I have implemented several changes, including:
-Moved Training to 1st level. This was actually an idea inspired by a post in Lemmy's fighter thread. I did not implement the Training "rank" system, but I am continuing to edit the wording. I have worked the most on weapon training, but I completely agree that it is still confusing.
-I know I probably have too many training types, but I can always dump some of them later.
-I am considering lowering the bravery bonus to +1 at 2nd level and every three levels after that. At 20th level, that ends up being 3 points lower than +1/2 level.
-Resilience has been toned down, but I think its still good. I decided against Scud's suggestion of a list of +1s, because I tried something like it in my last fighter rewrite (the repertoire fighter) and eventually abandoned it. I didn't like the way it turned out.
-Continued to fiddle with Disciplines.
Using Charisma for Will saves creates more MAD, Lemmy. Unless you're going to start handing out Ability Score bonuses, probably not a good idea.
Now, if you were to replace Wis MODIFIER with Cha modifier for all purposes, that's an option, you're more like a paladin...changing the dump stat.
====================
Overall, it's an interesting choice of abilities to choose from, without going into a feat rewrite.
I'm moderately surprised it does not apply to initial skills. I feel the initial skill list is too heavy, and you should pare it down by 4 to the 'core skills of all fighters', and let them have 2 of their choice. i.e. the customization you allow with the rest of the class. No reason for ALL fighters to have knowledge skills as class skills, for instance. But if they want Knowledge (Nature), why not let them take it?
Intelligence training in later levels would allow more 'needed' skills to be added the same way (for instance, if it proves a more social or stealth oriented campaign). I'd put a minimum of +2 skills for Int training, however, and make your Int BONUS two points higher, not Int SCORE.
Your weapon training design is indeed clunky. Just add the weapons you 'use' to primary weapon group, and any other weapon groups you pick become part of secondary weapon group. If you want to spend skill points to move outside weapons into secondary, or secondary weapons to primary, that's fine.
I'd probably allow bastard sword or d waraxe or orcish double axe as choices, IF you take weapon foc in them at level 1 to show you mean it.
An interesting option you might want to add is additional ability score improvement. Such as +1 to his lowest physical and mental ability score every 4 levels. This will gradually 'round up' the lowest ability scores, and is basically the essence of self-improvement and removing dump stats over time.
The amount of self-healing is really, really low. Level +Con? 1/day? May as well just give him Godless Healing and call it a day. I personally went Level + Fort Save (including ALL bonuses to Fort save) # /times = Bravery bonus (and could use feats for more). I did change it by 'converting' damage to non-lethal, so it wasn't instant healing, however.
Also gave the Fighter a reason to take Great Fortitude, and a nice side benefit of cloaks of resistance and Con boosters.
==Aelryinth
I would posit that while this is an improvement, it's an improvement onto what fighters are already pretty good at and simply shores up some of their weaknesses without actually improving their stand on the tier system, this rewrite is still bottom tier. :/
still mostly a dip class.
well, he's not done, either. ;) has to write up some of his masteries. Leadership Mastery, for starters, could solve a lot of problems with a companion mandated.
I'm personally not a fan of EVERYTHING being optional, which this build is, but it does need more underlying and out of combat utility.
Among other things, where's the anti-magic options?
==Aelryinth
maybe when he chooses one of the attribute things he can choose a skill tied to that stat and add half his level to it? con instead getting the healing shizazzle.
I started to read the document, but then I had to stop and post this.
"It's" is a contraction of "it is," not a possessive pronoun.
Thank you for youre comments A,
I have mixed feelings about allowing a class to choose additional skills as levels are gained. While it exists, it is not something well represented in the rules. I did consider trimming down the skill list by one or two. Maybe the disciplines can include an option to pick one skill associated with the ability score each time one is chosen, like bandw2 suggested.
As you noted, this is still a work in progress. While I know I this rewrite does not address everything you and others see as issues, I do feel like I am working on some new stuff. The feedback helps.
I put +2 to the ability score instead of the mod because I hoped someone could (for example) choose a discipline multiple times and the bonus would atck for each one. If I went with +2 to mod, I would want them to not stack.
Still working on Weapon Training. I know, I know. I'd like to work on it more before abandoning it.
I'm surprised anyonw notices the mention of bastard sword and waraxe. I included those because they are kind of lame compared to other exotic weapons.
I can improve the healing from the Con discipline. Figured that making it a swift action was worth something. I was trying to guage it against other choices, and it's hard to know how many HP is equal to rolling two dice on a stabilization check or gaining an armor bonus when not wearing armor. Do you have a suggestion on how much healing?
Oh and there is an "anti-magic" option. First draft anyways. I will make sure that I have the most recent uploaded.
And thank you Stuffy. I have never been clear on that.
bastard sword and waraxe are indeed pretty lame compared to the falcata.
However, as 'free' martial weapons, they are clearly better then ANY martial weapon. I don't have any problem handing them out...I just want to see that if you give them, its cause the player WANTS TO USE IT, and not just cause it's 'free'.
Character level 1, no dipping later just to grab yet another bonus feat and the best martial weapon in the game, and you MUST use a feat for weapon focus in it, shows me you want that weapon, and to be good in that weapon. Good enough!
==Aelryinth
OK. How would you write that up?
As an alternate, what if I did this:
Advanced Proficiency (Ex): At 1st level, the fighter chooses one of the following feats and gains it as a bonus feat: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword, dwarven waraxe, hand crossbow, net, or whip), Improved Unarmed Strike, or Tower Shield Proficiency.
That's a dip attractor.
Require Weapon Focus to be spent, and then give it to them. That way it burns the combat feat they might be expecting to use, as well.
Advanced Proficiency: If the fighter takes Weapon Focus in one of the following weapons at Character level one, he automatically gains the EWP for the weapon: (List of non-uber weapons).
Note: I like breaking 'level one' into 'character level one' and 'class level one'.
Character level one grants things like weapon profs, spellbooks, extra cantrips, armor profs, and the like. You know, the things you don't get if you take level 1 in a PrC.
That's why I don't have a problem with giving away tower shield profs for fighters...they only get it at character level one.
==Aelryinth
A,
Any charcater with 1 level of fighter gains tower shield proficiency, not just 1st level characters who choose fighter as their first character class.
I see what you are saying about a dip attractor, but I'm not sure if we're talking about the core rules as they exist, or the core rules as you would like them to be (I'm sure we both have a few things to say about that). Obviosuly, most classes are front loaded, if you think about it. A boost to saves, new class skills, features that help the class achieve its concept at 1st level, a type of damage bonus, unlimited 0-level spells, bonus feats, whatever, etc.
Anyways, I am not rigid in my homebrew. If some one else feels the same way about about the fighter getting a free "lesser exotic" proficiency, I will remove or alter it, no prob.
I have added to the leadership and magic defense training types you inquired about. I hope they are not too terrible. First attempts and wotnot. The new PDF has a streamlined layout, and many changes to the training types.
A, thank you for your continued input. As I have mentioned before (another thread), even though I do not adhere to your fighter concepts, I hope you know that I continue to find inspiration in them.
I think the free exotic weapon proficiencies are fine. With 1 dip into Ninja you get Wakizashi, Katana, and sneak attack.
Letting people get weapon training at 1st level instead of 5th level seems a bit off to me. It would probably be best to keep trainings at starting at 3rd, otherwise Fighter would become an automatic 1 level dip for any non-casting class.
I could rearrange when training is gained, but so you know this weapon training is not the same as standard. I'm considering lessening what is gained at 1st level anyways. At first level its +1 to attack and damage with a single weapon (but is retrain able). It's not a whole weapon group.
Alrighty. I bumped Training to 3rd level, when a normal fighter's training class features normally begin.
I see you made a few changes to it. I'll take a look tomorrow and give you my feedback. :)
Using Charisma for Will saves creates more MAD, Lemmy. Unless you're going to start handing out Ability Score bonuses, probably not a good idea.
It only increases MADness if you aren't building a CHa-focused Fighter... In which case, why the hell that Cha-training?
Anyway...
I really, really, really don't like abilities that force you to pick it multiple times just so they stay relevant. The "game of inches" thing that afflicts so many martial options in Pathfinder is one of the greatest weaknesses of the game, IMHO. That makes character-building quite boring.
Some of the training abilities are really good, like the one that allows you to move half your movement speed as a swift action. It's probably too good for a 3rd level ability (Don't misunderstand me, I love the idea of martial classes getting better mobility, but I also think that full-attacking should have some advantage over moving and attacking, only it shouldn't be such a wide gap as it is per RAW).
The ability to always "Take 10" on attack rolls is cool, but I'm not sure if it's balanced... Obviously, you're giving up on critical hit, but you're also basically never missing an attack ever again. Specially with the bonus to attack/damage rolls.
Minor nitpick: you say he trains for 8h but then says "at the end of the 4 hours. Is it 4 or 8 hours? I assume the effects don't disappear once you go to sleep, since characters are unlikely to have 8 free hours everyday, but you should probably make that very obvious, just to be safe...
You probably shouldn't allow DR to stack... DR can get insane pretty quickly if it stacks.
These are the only problems I have with the homebrew. Like I siad before, I'm not a fan of using the Brawler mechanics as core features, but it works.
He should allow DR to stack. If he's pursuing that route, he's trying to get DR like a barb is...and barb DR can stack VERY high.
Taking 10 on an attack roll can also be a guaranteed miss against a high level foe, so it's situational. No crit is also a point.
Stand and beat on something SHOULD be better then moving and beating on something. But as iteratives stand, they should apply to mobility, and there should be a bonus to standing still.
As the rules go now, full attack/no move is the baseline, and you are PENALIZED for movement. That's not right. :P
I like to give the fighter a choice of +1 per iterative to AC, saves or TH when using the full attack action. That way, choosing not to move becomes a bonus, and you get to decide what that bonus is!
==Aelryinth
Lemmy,
The abilities you mention are limited in use per day. For example, at 3rd level, depending on the training chosen, a fighter could take 10 on an attack or move half his speed once per day. I feel that is in line with a 1st or 2nd level spell. He can't get a 2nd use until mid level.
As for the weapon training 8 hr vs 4 hr thing, its a typo. I have changed this ability a dozen times. I will take a look at clarifying duration, but for all I know this ability will change another dozen times... Hmm. I've been uploading the doc to dropbox every day. Maybe you didn't have the newest one.
As for the armor training DR, the DR maxes out at 5 at high level because of the limitations on how many time a training can be chosen.
When the brawler came out and I saw martial flexibility, I immediately felt that this was the class feature the fighter was supposed to have. If anything, its a better match for the "combat master" fighter than an unarmed warrior.
Lemmy and A,
On the subject of Cha -> Will = MAD, I have mixed feelings. If the fighter invests in skills like Perception and Sense Motive, they yes it creates MAD. If the fighter somehow becomes the party face and needs Diplomacy and Bluff, then it decreases MAD. I don't actually have a problem with the ability to apply Charisma to will saves, but it probably shouldn't be a fighter only ability.
Stand and beat on something SHOULD be better then moving and beating on something. But as iteratives stand, they should apply to mobility, and there should be a bonus to standing still.
As the rules go now, full attack/no move is the baseline, and you are PENALIZED for movement. That's not right. :P
Could you elaborate on this some?
A full attack routine should be you giving up movement to execute a devastating combination.
it goes without saying that giving up movement on a real battlefield can be a very bad idea. However, stopping and being able to really unload is also the most devastating way to attack an enemy.
As the game stands, you gain extra attacks ONLY if you full attack. If you want to do damage on the move, you either need magic items that grant move actions (like a Quickrunner's shirt), class features (like Pounce, letting you full attack on a charge), or you need to burn feats for some below par additional damage on Vital Strike and the like.
If iterative attacks were simply given by level, you could then redo the paradigm, get rid of all the move and attack stuff, and turn a full attack into a real execution of some devastating technique or combination.
There should be SOME DIFFERENCE between a full attack and a move and attack at levels 1-5, right? And that difference should be there at all levels.
So, basically, if you decide to give up your move action and do a full attack, you choose the following:
Gain a bonus TH = 1+ to your number of iteratives (i.e. +2-5)
OR
Gain a bonus to your AC = same
OR
Gain a bonus to all your saves = Same.
You choose.
OR....this is how your full attack evolves when you take the Vital Strike feat, as an alternative, allowing you to take Vital Strike at level 1 if you want to, and see a difference in your Full Attack when you do.
==Aelryinth
@Lemmy: game of inches?
He means buying '+1's to keep up with the joneses, using feats and the like. It's like weapon spec...getting a bunch of small bonuses, spending 4 feats to do so...or spending feat after feat to keep trip viable by buying +2's as you level.
A game of inches.
==Aelryinth
Ah okay, that's what I thought
I've continued to make minor editorial changes to the document over the past week. And... the number of training types is getting pretty over the top, but I keep on getting new ideas. Input on some of these would be appreciated.
One thing I noticed is that changing the bonus feat progression means that the fighter won't be able to take many feats with even-numbered BAB-requirements earlier than other classes (for example, he can't take all those feats requiring BAB +6 at 6th level).
That is indeed one small perk the CRB fighter had, but probably not as good as the wizard getting a new spell level before the sorcerer. I guess he'll have to use Martial Flexibility to pick up his favorite BAB +6 feat for one minute at a time.
I think the paradigm of making a trade off between mobility and damage is fine. The big issue is that it's way too binary in 3.5e/PF.
To comment on the fighter rework, I think it's an okay direction, but most of their powers are very passive, which doesn't address what I perceive as a big problem with the fighter class.
Give me an example of a non-passive ability. Not neccessarily for this class, but just in general.
Not sure if this address your concern Cyrad, but I took one part of Weapon Training and rolled it into the 1st level Student of Battle.
A non-passive ability involves the character actually doing something. There's a spectrum of how active an ability feels. A static buff is passive. A temporary buff you activate is a little more active.
(Active) As an immediate action when an enemy attacks the class, the class may make an attack roll at their highest base attack bonus. If the attack roll exceeds the enemy's attack roll, the enemy's attack misses.
(Active with a passive benefit): As an immediate action, the class may gain a +4 dodge bonus to AC against a single attack.
(Passive) The class gains a +2 dodge bonus to AC.
I see, and I see why you say that. However, there are quite a few non-passive abilities tucked in there. Many of the training types have an X/day ability. I will set myself to creating some more active ones though.