I would think so. I mean, the insides of a creature aren't very well defended, it makes sense that you could do some serious damage, if you were trained appropriately.
Dex and size modifiers not applying is not the same as "denied its Dex Bonus".
You could argue that you have total concealment to it since you're inside it (unless you got engulfed by a gibbering mouther), but it's pretty iffy.
A creature who has swallowed you whole isn't automatically flat-footed, so you probably can't sneak attack.
The swallow whole rules are a little wonky, however, so expect to see some rules variance based on GM's opinion.
For example, can you flank the creature who has you swallowed? (assuming it's large and positioned in such a way to technically qualify for flanking)
A GM may also rule that you are blind while inside. Even a light source or darkvision may not work, as you probably have the creature's stomach pressed up against your face. It's also quite likely that you'll need to hold your breath.
You can sneak attack something that is denied its Dex bonus to AC, and swallow whole fulfills this requirement. It doesn't have to be flat-footed.
I wouldn't think flanking would work, for a few reasons (as you point out, you are probably 'blind' for all intents and purposes). Primarily, because of this though:
"When in doubt about whether two characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two attackers' centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent's space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked."
I wouldn't try to apply additional effects like suffocation, as the text already spells out what happens when you are in there. I would, however, give as gross an image as possible when describing just what kind of goopy situation they were in as the critters stomach acids started dissolving their legs (or head or whichever part wound up facing down in the stomach).
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Dex and size modifiers not applying is not the same as "denied its Dex Bonus".
You could argue that you have total concealment to it since you're inside it (unless you got engulfed by a gibbering mouther), but it's pretty iffy.
I don't think we read this the same way.
If a creature isn't applying their Dex bonus, it has been denied to them. You don't have to use the exact phrase 'denied its Dex bonus', you just have to create a situation that makes it so that the bonus is no longer in use.
The mechanics of Swallow Whole do this.
A creature who has swallowed you whole isn't automatically flat-footed, so you probably can't sneak attack. While the interior AC doesn't receive the creature's dexterity modifier, this is different than having a dexterity modifier denied.
Having your Dex modifier denied doesn't make you Flat-footed - but you get sneak damage either way. Not getting a Dex modifier to AC sounds exactly the same to me as having your Dex modifier denied.
For example, can you flank the creature who has you swallowed?
No - by flanking rules you have to be able to draw a line from your character to your flanking ally and have it go through two opposite sides of the creature.
I don't think 'inside' and 'outside' count as opposite sides.A GM may also rule that you are blind while inside. Even a light source or darkvision may not work, as you probably have the creature's stomach pressed up against your face.
This is in the realm of GM interpretation.
Matthew:
Being denied a dexterity bonus to AC implied that you could normally otherwise apply it. The insides of a creature never receive a dexterity bonus in the first place, which is quite different.
If you're a medium creature inside a large creature, you're occupying one of its four squares. (this isn't mounted combat where you share squares) You thus have plenty of options to flank the other 3 squares of the creature, in theory.
Being told that you can't use a Dex bonus is synonymous with being denied your Dex bonus.
Flanking says how it works, and being inside of it doesn't allow you to fulfill the listed requirements, as the earlier quote shows.
I wouldn't say that "Denied Dex" and "dex doesn't apply" are synonymous in this instance. If you are denied your dex to AC AC penalties due to very low dex still apply. If your dex isn't applied to AC at all, then a negative dex modifier isn't applied either.
How does being inside a creature prevent you from meeting the requirements of flanking?
If the creature is large sized or greater (which it likely is, considering it just swallowed you) you almost certainly can drawn a line your square and an ally's, and have it pass through one of the other squares of the creature.
"When in doubt about whether two characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two attackers' centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent's space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked."
If you are IN one of those squares, the line doesn't go through the border of the space, it starts IN the space.
Also, despite rules to support it, it should be obvious that being trapped in something you can't see through or communicate from, how on EARTH would you work with your ally to gain a bonus?
Of course, there is another thread talking about invisible clerics giving flanking bonuses to rogues who don't even know they are there, so yeah...
How does being inside a creature prevent you from meeting the requirements of flanking?
If the creature is large sized or greater (which it likely is, considering it just swallowed you) you almost certainly can drawn a line between your square and an ally's, and have it pass through one of the other squares of the creature.
Flanking
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner. When in doubt about whether two characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two attackers' centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent's space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.
It is arguable that if you are sitting in somethings belly you can't strictly fulfill the requirements of flanking.
EDITED: Because Imma muppet
How does being inside a creature prevent you from meeting the requirements of flanking?
If the creature is large sized or greater (which it likely is, considering it just swallowed you) you almost certainly can drawn a line between your square and an ally's, and have it pass through one of the other squares of the creature.
It is arguable that if you are sitting in somethings belly you can strictly fulfill the requirements of flanking.Flanking
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner. When in doubt about whether two characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two attackers' centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent's space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.
I don't really see how. The line starts inside the creature, so can't pass through opposite borders...
How does being inside a creature prevent you from meeting the requirements of flanking?
If the creature is large sized or greater (which it likely is, considering it just swallowed you) you almost certainly can drawn a line your square and an ally's, and have it pass through one of the other squares of the creature.
"When in doubt about whether two characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two attackers' centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent's space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked."
If you are IN one of those squares, the line doesn't go through the border of the space, it starts IN the space.
Also, despite rules to support it, it should be obvious that being trapped in something you can't see through or communicate from, how on EARTH would you work with your ally to gain a bonus?
Of course, there is another thread talking about invisible clerics giving flanking bonuses to rogues who don't even know they are there, so yeah...
Ah, right you are. I was reading the following and had it logically swapped:
Exception: If a flanker takes up more than 1 square, it gets the flanking bonus if any square it occupies counts for flanking.Oddly, this implies that a large creature can flank something in its own stomach with an ally.
Naturally, this all gets rather silly as total cover, etc, in involved.
Hmmm. I also think RAW someone in a t-rex's stomach could flank something the t-rex was attacking if an ally of the stomach-dweller was flanking the t-rex's target appropriately.
Silly. :D
I don't really see how. The line starts inside the creature, so can't pass through opposite borders...How does being inside a creature prevent you from meeting the requirements of flanking?
If the creature is large sized or greater (which it likely is, considering it just swallowed you) you almost certainly can drawn a line between your square and an ally's, and have it pass through one of the other squares of the creature.
It is arguable that if you are sitting in somethings belly you can strictly fulfill the requirements of flanking.Flanking
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner. When in doubt about whether two characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two attackers' centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent's space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.
I meant "can't"...*shakes head at self*
editing...
I don't really see how. The line starts inside the creature, so can't pass through opposite borders...How does being inside a creature prevent you from meeting the requirements of flanking?
If the creature is large sized or greater (which it likely is, considering it just swallowed you) you almost certainly can drawn a line between your square and an ally's, and have it pass through one of the other squares of the creature.
It is arguable that if you are sitting in somethings belly you can strictly fulfill the requirements of flanking.Flanking
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner. When in doubt about whether two characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two attackers' centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent's space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.
I meant "can't"...*shakes head at self*
editing...
I will recall my goons.
Your professionally administered beating has been recalled. Sleep well tonight, for tomorrow, you may die!
(possibly a quote from something? I've been drinking rum for hours, please don't think I'm threatening harm, I'm a pansy pacifist).
Hmmm. I also think RAW someone in a t-rex's stomach could flank something the t-rex was attacking if an ally of the stomach-dweller was flanking the t-rex's target appropriately.
Silly. :D
I was considering that, but the body of the T-rex probably counts as total cover, thus preventing you from attacking into that target's square. (preventing your ability to flank)
Now, if you add in things like the Swashbuckler Mouser archetype, there may start to be options to flank again. ;)
This thread interests me.
Not that my characters get eaten much, but at least we aren't arguing yet. :D
In the past, I've considered making a summoner with a naga themed eidolon with Swallow Whole, so I have spent some time considering the ability.
It's really hard to make work, however, as it's incredibly easy to break out with the low AC and negligible hp.
It's an ability that really should be scary, but usually winds up being comically bad for any creature trying to use it.
I don't ENTIRELY agree, the victim has to spend an action to get out. Casters are affected by this WAY more than martials, cause they are just doing damage anyway.
I do kinda wish it was harder to escape/did more damage/had more effects, but it isn't too bad as is. IMO.
Ha! as long as you have players who know to keep a light slashing weapon on them. I nearly killed a guest player just this week with swallow whole - a fighter whose only weapon was his falchion.
Ha! as long as you have players who know to keep a light slashing weapon on them. I nearly killed a guest player just this week with swallow whole - a fighter whose only weapon was his falchion.
If you don't keep a variety of daggers on you (silver and so on)... you are an idiot.
:D
In the past, I've considered making a summoner with a naga themed eidolon with Swallow Whole, so I have spent some time considering the ability.
It's really hard to make work, however, as it's incredibly easy to break out with the low AC and negligible hp.
It's an ability that really should be scary, but usually winds up being comically bad for any creature trying to use it.
I don't ENTIRELY agree, the victim has to spend an action to get out. Casters are affected by this WAY more than martials, cause they are just doing damage anyway.
I do kinda wish it was harder to escape/did more damage/had more effects, but it isn't too bad as is. IMO.
Most "victims" benefit from being swallowed, as they can wail on the soft interior and deal a lot of damage.
While it's true that casters aren't too keep on being swallowed, this is mostly the result of them not liking being grappled in general. Things that defeat being grappled will usually defeat being swallowed whole too.
If you can't avoid being grappled, it's actually probably safer to be in the stomach as you're likely to take less damage, especially if the creature has allies.
Ha! as long as you have players who know to keep a light slashing weapon on them. I nearly killed a guest player just this week with swallow whole - a fighter whose only weapon was his falchion.Heh, he didn't have a gauntlet or a spiked light shield...or even something to use as an improvised weapon? Whelp, hope he learned his lesson!
Yeah, you pretty much nailed it there.
It is a pretty weak ability I guess. I would like to redact my earlier statement, this should be buffed enough to make it something you want to avoid, not a safer option during combat.