Archetype class abilities leveling late

[Jandor41]

Are archetype class features used at lower levels if they are gained later than their Core Class Counterparts?

Specifically if they are Supernatural Abilities and replace core class features.

I'm rather new to Pathfinder, and couldn't find this in the FAQ.

[Nefreet]

Do you have a specific example?

[Melkiador]

Most archetypes should tell you exactly at what level you receive their benefits. There are a small number of exceptions however. The Hedge Witch comes to mind. It gives up the 4th level Hex for an ability you would seem to get at 1st level, thought it's questionable.

[DM_Blake]

I have no idea what you're really asking.

Are you asking if you can use abilities before you get them, then no. Not even with archetypes - you get whatever feature at whatever level the class and/or archetype says you do, not before. But that answer is extremely obvious and intuitive, so I'm guessing you must have meant something else, but I don't know what.

Can you provide the exact specific example you want to do?

[Jandor41]

Nefreet wrote:

Do you have a specific example?

Yes, I am using a Sylph Sky Druid and it is at level 11.

I interpreted the rules to state that I would be able to Wild Shape into a huge Air Elemental, since it has flying. Or I could Wild Shape into any large Elemental of another type.

However I was told that since the Sky Druid gains the Wild Shape ability at 6th level, and not 4th as a normal druid, then I would have to go two levels down for the effective druid level.

Thus, I would be able to change into a large Air Elemental or a medium Elemental of another element.

[Nefreet]

Ah. THIS FAQ may be of some help, then.

(different book, but similar mechanic)

[DM_Blake]

Ahh, so this still looks pretty straight forward:

SRD, Sky Druid wrote:

Wild Shape (Su)

At 6th level, a sky druid gains the ability to use wild shape. When a sky druid takes the form of a creature with a fly speed, this ability functions at her class level + 1. For all other forms, her effective druid level for the ability is equal to her actual sky druid level. This ability otherwise functions as and replaces wild shape.

So for every form, your "effective druid level" = your "sky druid level". For flying critters, your "effective druid level" = your "sky druid level" + 1.

Nothing in there to apply a 2 level penalty to your "sky druid level" because you got the ability later, so just do exactly what it says and use your "sky druid level" (+1 when appropriate).

To be more specific, at levels 4 and 5 you are much, much worse than a normal druid at using Wild Shape (because you don't even have it). After that, you're exactly the same, or even better if you take the form of a flying creature.

[Jandor41]

Nefreet, Thank you. That does clear up a couple of things about the wording I was seeing for some of the other Druid archetypes.

But I don't think it answers the specific issue i had with the Sky Druid, being as the wording is different for it.

Really I just want to know if the Sky Druid uses the ability the same as a normal druid (except gains it 2 levels later and +1 if the creature is flying) or if they would be held back as to what they could transform into and be limited to the smaller shapes of a normal druid 2 levels lower.

[Jandor41]

DM_Blake wrote:

Ahh, so this still looks pretty straight forward:

SRD, Sky Druid wrote:

Wild Shape (Su)

At 6th level, a sky druid gains the ability to use wild shape. When a sky druid takes the form of a creature with a fly speed, this ability functions at her class level + 1. For all other forms, her effective druid level for the ability is equal to her actual sky druid level. This ability otherwise functions as and replaces wild shape.

So for every form, your "effective druid level" = your "sky druid level". For flying critters, your "effective druid level" = your "sky druid level" + 1.

Nothing in there to apply a 2 level penalty to your "sky druid level" because you got the ability later, so just do exactly what it says and use your "sky druid level" (+1 when appropriate).

Ok, that was what I thought it should be ruled as, as well.

The person I was talking to got very hung up on this rule from te Ultimate Combat Book:

"If an archetype replaces a class feature that is part of a series of improvements or additions to a base ability (such as a fighter's weapon training or a ranger's favored enemy), the next time the character would gain that ability, it counts as the lower-level ability that was replaced by the archetype. In effect, all abilities in that series are delayed until the next time the class improves that ability."

Does that then mean that they would be able to use their Wild Shape 2 fewer times per day as per a normal druid 2 levels lower?

[DM_Blake]

I would have agreed, except the Sky Druid version explicitly says that it works the way I described it above. If it didn't say "effective druid level for the ability is equal to her actual sky druid level" then I might agree with your friend, but this quoted bit makes it very clear how it works.

Specific rules always overwrite general rules. Your friend quotes a general rule that applies (generally) to all archetypes, and you have a specific rule that says the Sky Druid works differently than the general rule. Your specific rule overwrites the general rule for your archetype.

[Arachnofiend]

Remember that there are Druid archetypes that get Wildshape late and explicitly penalize your effective Druid level to match. As the Sky Druid does not make any explicit mention, it works under different rules than those archetypes.