Multiclass Variant Idea - Limited Gestalts

[DeathmatchFM]

Background: I've always liked multiclassing as it was done in 2nd Edition AD&D. I didn't play 3.0/3.5 (moved right to Pathfinder), but as I understand it most of the "dual advancement" was moved to prestige classes like Eldritch Knight or Mystic Theurge. This isn't a problem, it it is a different flavor.

The multiclassing in Pathfinder doesn't allow you to advance in two classes at once (even at a slower speed), since you have to pick one or the other to level up. The general poor handling of multiclassing has lead to the hybrid classes, which I think are a good take on the concept in general.

So this suggested multiclass variant isn't here to "fix" something since there isn't anything "broken", but just a general idea. "Gestalts" are a concept from a 3.5 book called Unearthed Arcana, if anyone doesn't know, where a character advances with two classes at once and does the best of both. I'd try to do it differently to be balanced along single-class characters.

1 - HD and BAB: Multiclasses have d8 HD and medium BAB progression. If both classes have slow BAB advancement, the multiclass instead has d6 HD and slow BAB advancement. If both classes have fast BAB advancement, the multiclass has d10 HD and fast BAB advancement.

2 - Use the lower of the skill points per level between the two classes as a base. If the other class has higher skill points per level, increase the multiclass's skill points per level by two. Always combine class skill lists.

3 - Gain the good saving throws of each class. No more than two saves can be good for a class (the player picks which save remains bad). For example, a fighter/wizard will have good Fort and Will saves, but a cleric/rogue must pick one of his three saves to be poor.

4 - Gain Favored Class Bonuses at first level, and at every other level the character advances (3, 5, 7, etc). Characters able to favor more than one class instead gain their Favored Class Bonus every level.

5 - The multiclass gains the class features of both classes two levels later than usual. At 1st level, the character must pick the class features from one class to gain. At 2nd level, the character gains the class features for the other class. No class skills are gained at 3rd level. The character progresses normally at 4th level and onwards.

6 - Multiclass characters gain feats at a slower rate. Instead of gaining a feat every other level, multiclass characters gain a feat at 1st level, again at 3rd level, and every three levels afterwards (with seven feats by 18th level).

7 - Multiclass characters are unable to further multiclass, and cannot take prestige classes. Not all combinations of classes are available for multiclass. (For example, an oracle/sorcerer would have significant advantage over a cleric/wizard due to sharing the same casting Ability. May need to be more specific on this rule at some point)

The intent is mostly for simple combinations that existed in 2nd edition, like fighter/wizard, cleric/wizard, fighter/rogue, or something else innocuous. Example issues could be the previously mentioned oracle/sorcerer, or doubling up spellcasting with wizard/sorcerer or cleric/oracle.

I'll note that this allow for more variety in casting classes that multiclass, since a cleric/wizard would eventually get a CL of 18, versus the mystic theurge that would allow a maximum CL of 15 for each. I also didn't make it with hybrid classes in mind, like a bloodrager/warpriest.

I'll clarify that this is just an idea, not something I have plans to use in a game at the moment or a suggesting to fix anything wrong or broken. Thanks head of time to everyone who took the time to read and reply to this thread!

[rainzax]

Are you asking whether or not your Dual (above) is more-or-less equivalent to a regular character?

[Johnny_Devo]

This actually reminds me of the Hybrid system in 4e.

Though I'm a little confused at the wording of the class features progression. If I got it wrong, please correct me.

A figher/wizard multiclass.
HD 8, BaB 0.75
Level 1 - gains wizard class features as a level 1 wizard
Level 2 - gains fighter class features as a level 1 fighter
Level 3 - No class feature progression, regular character progression
Level 4 - Considered as level 2 in both classes
Level 5 - Considered as level 3 in both classes
Level 6 - Considered as level 4 in both classes

And so on. This is, of course, talking about class features only. a level 6 multiclass would still have 6 HD and saves progression appropriate for a level 6 character, and so on?

[DeathmatchFM]

To answer the first question, I wanted to know if this seemed greviously unbalanced or all around a bad idea.

And to answer you, Johnny, that is exactly what I meant. Both classes gain class features as two levels lower than the character's level. So a 6th level fighter/wizard has HD, BAB, saves, and skills of a 6th level character, but only the class features of a 4th level fighter and 4th level wizard.

I got the class features of two levels lower based on splitting XP in half, similar to 2nd Edition.

[CalethosVB]

How does this system account for class archetypes?

With the inability to further multiclass, why would you desire to ban Sorcerer/Oracle and keep Wizard/Cleric when the second is already stronger due to earlier progression and double the versatility? It's not like you can multiclass into Mystic Theurge or Eldritch Knight from here. What about other classes that have excellent synergy like Paladin/Oracle or Monk/Druid?

This system really puts human and half humans into a good place, as humans gain access to a feat that allow for bonus favored class options, with the Half-elf getting so much more than anybody else. Going Half-elf for not only the ability to gain a FCB every level but to double up on your bonuses is worth a feat. (Fast Learner)

How do saving throws work with Monk being one of the sides of the multiclass?

Can I multiclass a Bloodrager/Barbarian? What about a Warpriest/Cleric? Gunslinger/Swashbuckler with the Picaroon archetype?

How many Sneak Attack dice do I gain with a level 14 Rogue/Snakebite Striker?

Similarly, how is my bomb damage calculated if I multiclass an Alchemist/Arcane Bomber Wizard at 8th level?

[rainzax]

The dead level at 3rd bugs me.

Are you familiar with the 0/0 variant from 3rd edition that grants half of each class features to the 1st level character? I would use that.

1st: fighter 0 mage 0
2nd: fighter 1 mage 0 (or fighter 0 mage 1)
3rd: fighter 1 mage 1
4th: fighter 2 mage 2
5th: fighter 3 mage 3

[DeathmatchFM]

Thanks for the comments guys!

The restriction on certain "desirable" combinations is to prevent spellcasting off a single Ability from dominating. I sort of envisioned MAD as a balance issue.

I'm not sure taking Fast Learner as a human would be good. It does essentially remove the part about only getting half of your FCB, but it costs a full feat. Assuming hp is a good balance point, Faster Learner could net you +10 hp at level 20, versus Toughness which is +20. The half-elf thing though is strong and I'd have to consider.

As far as I know, unchained monk only has two good saves, so it would interact with things the same as cleric would.

Snakebite Striker is a Brawler Archetype, which is a Fighter+Monk hybrid. I wouldn't allow this variant multiclassing for any hybrid classes (example being bloodrager/warpriest that would retain good BAB, HD, and get both divine and arcane spellcasting with this). I wouldn't do Alchemist/Wizard either.

I also do not intend this to work for all class combinations. I don't think Paladin/Oracle, Paladin/Sorcerer, Monk/Druid, and such are good ideas. They sort of benefit twice from a single Ability more than I had in mind.

Specifically, I was only looking at some 2nd Edition combinations, like Fighter/Rogue, Fighter/Cleric, Fighter/Wizard, Cleric/Wizard, and Rogue/Wizard.

And finally, the dead 3rd level bothers me too. I'm not familiar with the 0/0 variant though, and I'd be interested in what book it is so I can check it out :)

[rainzax]

DMG if I recall

[CalethosVB]

DeathmatchFM wrote:

Thanks for the comments guys!

The restriction on certain "desirable" combinations is to prevent spellcasting off a single Ability from dominating. I sort of envisioned MAD as a balance issue.

I'm not sure taking Fast Learner as a human would be good. It does essentially remove the part about only getting half of your FCB, but it costs a full feat. Assuming hp is a good balance point, Faster Learner could net you +10 hp at level 20, versus Toughness which is +20. The half-elf thing though is strong and I'd have to consider.

As far as I know, unchained monk only has two good saves, so it would interact with things the same as cleric would.

Snakebite Striker is a Brawler Archetype, which is a Fighter+Monk hybrid. I wouldn't allow this variant multiclassing for any hybrid classes (example being bloodrager/warpriest that would retain good BAB, HD, and get both divine and arcane spellcasting with this). I wouldn't do Alchemist/Wizard either.

I also do not intend this to work for all class combinations. I don't think Paladin/Oracle, Paladin/Sorcerer, Monk/Druid, and such are good ideas. They sort of benefit twice from a single Ability more than I had in mind.

Specifically, I was only looking at some 2nd Edition combinations, like Fighter/Rogue, Fighter/Cleric, Fighter/Wizard, Cleric/Wizard, and Rogue/Wizard.

And finally, the dead 3rd level bothers me too. I'm not familiar with the 0/0 variant though, and I'd be interested in what book it is so I can check it out :)

Instead of writing a new system that has several pages worth of caveats and exceptions, write new classes or use the hybrid classes. Or let people use the system just as you've lain it out with no caveats and exceptions.

Multiclassing in Pathfinder isn't near as beneficial as it used to be back in 3.X. Now we have a variety of single class options, including a large number of base classes and a plethora of archetypes to change the abilities of those classes, and cam use those to support a large number of character concepts. Multiclassing also has no penalties now, whereas single classes gain bonuses for staying in class, like favored class bonuses, scaling class features, and archetypes that grow more powerful as you level up.

If you're looking for specifically Fighter/Rogue, look at the Slayer. Wizard/Fighter is the Magus. Fighter/Cleric is the Warpriest. Rogue/Cleric is the Inquisitor. Cleric/Wizard or Rogue/Wizard is the Bard.

[rainzax]

Yeah just write 3,000 new hybrid classes instead of one template that covers any two combinations!

Another Multi-Gestalt proposal

Spoiler:

Dual Class Character

1 - 0/0, 1st feat
2 - 1/1
3 - 2/2
4 - 3/3
5 - 3/3, 2nd feat, ability boost
6 - 4/4
7 - 5/5
8 - 6/6
9 - 6/6, 3rd feat, ability boost
10 - 7/7
11 - 8/8
12 - 9/9
13 - 9/9, 4th feat, ability boost
14 - 10/10
15 - 11/11
16 - 12/12
17 - 12/12, 5th feat, ability boost
18 - 13/13
19 - 14/14
20 - 15/15

HD - average of the two, rounded down, by character level
BAB - best of the two, by class level
Saves - best of the both, by class level
Skills - average of the two, rounded down, by character level
Class Skills - combine the two
Class Features - combine the two, by class level

Also, I would lift the SAD-synergy restriction.

[DeathmatchFM]

Thanks for everyone who posted here for some advice. I still do not think I'm on-board with hybrid classes being the solution to this, but I do admit that Pathfinder's system is going to make a gestalt-based multiclassing system difficult to pull off.

I'm going to shelve this idea for now, but thanks again for the ideas!