Party in need of skill monkey. Help comment on build.


Advice


Race: Halfling
Class: Rogue (Sniper, Burglar)
Str: 9 Dex: 17 Int: 16 Cons: 12 Wis: 10 Cha: 12
Alternate Racial Traits: Adaptable Luck, Swift as the Shadows
Traits: Pragmatic Activator, Reactionary
Skills: Acrobatics, Bluff, Climb, Diaable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Perception, Sense Motive, Stealth, Use Magical Device
Feat: Point Blank Shot

For Further Levels:
I'll be taking minor and major magic trick to get detect magic and reduce person. Reduce person is to get more dex and stealth for sniping.

Choice Between:
Bleeding Attack
Sniper's eye
Slow Reactions
Stand Up
Trap Spotter
Ledge Walker
Nimble Climber
Undetected Sabotage
Wall Climber

Feats:
Precise Shot
Far Shot
Rapid Reload (Heavy Crossbow)
Crossbow Mastery
Fortunate One
Adaptive Fortune

Is there anything I am missing that might make this slightly better?


Omnitricks wrote:
Is there anything I am missing that might make this slightly better?

First list out what you want to deliver to the party.

-James


I'm trying to use the skills that the rest of the party can't (e.g. disable device, umd) and do the stuff they won't either (stealth, escape artist, disguise) while trying to survive in combat while contributing (hence the ranged sniping build)

Grand Lodge

Actually, Rogues are not very good skill monkeys.

Now, the Bard, Alchemist, Ranger, and Inquisitor, do this quite well.

You will do more damage, be more versatile, be stealthier, and even deal with traps better.


Bard: No not really. They still can't do much damage compared to a rogue that is able to do sneak attack.

Alchemist: I have to make a society legit character for this game because that is what the gm wants to teach so no vivisectionist. Also, Discoveries are too bomb focused compared to talents that are a lot more versatile.

Ranger: There is only one archetype that can find traps if that is what you mean by will be better than a rogue. Also less skills and less trained skills to choose from.

Inquisitor: I don't like playing spellcasters. Too much bookkeeping. His class feats are also very combat based and has nothing to do with specializing skills.


Omnitricks wrote:
Bard: No not really. They still can't do much damage compared to a rogue that is able to do sneak attack.

This is incorrect. Bard buffs add way more damage to the party than Sneak Attack (which is probably the weakest bonus damage mechanic in the game).

And with Versatile Performance and Bardic Knowledge, Bards handily outskill every other class, including Rogues. If you really want Trap Spotter, you can also just be an Archaeologist Bard and get the only worthwhile part of Rogue on the much more useful Bard chassis.

Omnitricks wrote:
Alchemist: I have to make a society legit character for this game because that is what the gm wants to teach so no vivisectionist. Also, Discoveries are too bomb focused compared to talents that are a lot more versatile.

Vivisectionists are good for natural attack alchemists, but nothing about your concept requires you to be one. Bombers are awesome, too. And the idea that rogue talents are anything other than terrible is laughable. There is one good rogue talent, and only one: Trap Spotter.

Omnitricks wrote:
Ranger: There is only one archetype that can find traps if that is what you mean by will be better than a rogue. Also less skills and less trained skills to choose from.

There are two, actually: Trapper and Urban Ranger. A full BAB will deal way more damage overall than sneak attack dice, especially with all the bonus feats rangers get. You do get two fewer skills, but uh, skills are crappy anyway. You also get the opportunity to have an animal companion, and another set of actions (never mind an extra spy/scout/whatever) each turn is probably one of the most versatile things you can have.

Omnitricks wrote:
Inquisitor: I don't like playing spellcasters. Too much bookkeeping. His class feats are also very combat based and has nothing to do with specializing skills.

If you don't like playing spellcasters, you will be forever disappointed with Pathfinder and 3rd edition D&D in general. Sorry. You might want to try a different edition. Or, like I had to, suck it up and learn to deal with spellcasting so you can be useful to the party.

The first hard lesson to learn is this: skill monkey is not a useful role in a party. Early on, skills are useful, yes, because spells and magic items have not yet obviated them. However, by mid-game (the 8-12 range), skills are practically obsoleted by magic. Sorry, your best bet to be useful to the party is to play a caster.

I definitely recommend the same things blackbloodtroll suggested, and I'll add Druid to the list, since they are excellent jack of all trades, too, thanks to calling and training animals/wildshaping into such a huge variety of forms/having a really varied spell list.


Have you considered the archeologist archetype for Bard, using Fate's Favored as a trait?

It can call upon a +2 luck bonus as many rounds as you normally would performance rounds, a wealth of skills and knowledges, and trap/perception/disable based bonuses.

Also, several utitlity bard spells.


The main problem of a ranged rogue is the difficulty of gaining sneak attacks. A nice trick to overcome this problem is to ask nicely from a ally to take dazzling display. You should have both daz. dis. and shatter defences. He initiatiates with Dazzling Display and you follow with attacks on flat-footed opponents because of Shatter defences. A Human for this tactic works much much better because you are very feat starved. I would also suggest that you use a bow instead for the same reason, you just cannot have crossbow mastery soon enough.

Your feats should go something like this:

1 Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2 Talent: Weapon Training: Weapon Focus: Shortbow
3 Rapid Shot
4 Talent: Snap Shot
5 Improved Initiative
6 Talent: Sniper’s Eye
7 Dazzling Dissplay
8 Talent:Combat Trick: Shatter Defenses
9 Deadly Aim
10 Talent: Stealthy Sniper
11 Manyshot
12 Talent: Feat: Snap Shot
13 Improved Snap Shot
14 Talent: Crippling Strike
15 Combat Reflexes
16 Talent: Hard to Fool
17 Clustered Shot
18 Talent: Fast Tumble
19 Greater Snap Shot
20 Talent: Resiliency

I know that I ask for many concessions, but having ranged sneak attacks is problematic by itself, you do not have a lot of room for flavor adjustements or you will end up with a character completely useless in combat.

Grand Lodge

I think you have a deep misunderstanding of the power, and versatility, of many classes.

Sneak attack is one of the weakest forms of damage.

If you go Freebooter/Trapper Ranger, you will have Full BAB, D10 HD, 6 skill points per level, two good saves, bonus feats, static reliable damage boost, Trapfinding, and still be able to beat the Rogue in the Stealth game.

In fact, with this, and the added ability to make your own Traps, that you can literally shoot at people later, makes you dang Rambo PC.

Seriously, shooting Bear Traps at people, and even being able to snipe whilst doing it.

Oh, and you can buff your allies, in addition to your skill monkeying.

Yeah, that's a lot better than dealing with the constant troubles of getting Sneak Attack off, and struggling to assist the party in any meaningful way in combat, for a measly two extra skill points.

Sczarni

Have you considered being a wizard?

Utility spells, a high int for all sorts of skills (go elf get breadth of knowledge)

Take the spell aram zeys warding so you can disable magical traps...

Grand Lodge

He doesn't seem to like spellcasting.

I have given one of the best non-spellcasting options, though there are others.

None of them involve the Rogue.


XMorsX wrote:

The main problem of a ranged rogue is the difficulty of gaining sneak attacks. A nice trick to overcome this problem is to ask nicely from a ally to take dazzling display. You should have both daz. dis. and shatter defences. He initiatiates with Dazzling Display and you follow with attacks on flat-footed opponents because of Shatter defences. A Human for this tactic works much much better because you are very feat starved. I would also suggest that you use a bow instead for the same reason, you just cannot have crossbow mastery soon enough.

Your feats should go something like this:

1 Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2 Talent: Weapon Training: Weapon Focus: Shortbow
3 Rapid Shot
4 Talent: Snap Shot
5 Improved Initiative
6 Talent: Sniper’s Eye
7 Dazzling Dissplay
8 Talent:Combat Trick: Shatter Defenses
9 Deadly Aim
10 Talent: Stealthy Sniper
11 Manyshot
12 Talent: Feat: Snap Shot
13 Improved Snap Shot
14 Talent: Crippling Strike
15 Combat Reflexes
16 Talent: Hard to Fool
17 Clustered Shot
18 Talent: Fast Tumble
19 Greater Snap Shot
20 Talent: Resiliency

I know that I ask for many concessions, but having ranged sneak attacks is problematic by itself, you do not have a lot of room for flavor adjustements or you will end up with a character completely useless in combat.

Your build is predated on Shatter Defenses rendering the target to everyone, not just the party. The feat is ambiguous to my reading about whether this is so, but in any case in Mythic Adventures there is Mythic Shatter Defenses, which explicitly states that enemies are flatfooted to its effects; the implication being that normal Shatter Defenses does not have that ability.


Omnitricks wrote:

Bard: No not really. They still can't do much damage compared to a rogue that is able to do sneak attack.

Alchemist: I have to make a society legit character for this game because that is what the gm wants to teach so no vivisectionist. Also, Discoveries are too bomb focused compared to talents that are a lot more versatile.

Ranger: There is only one archetype that can find traps if that is what you mean by will be better than a rogue. Also less skills and less trained skills to choose from.

Inquisitor: I don't like playing spellcasters. Too much bookkeeping. His class feats are also very combat based and has nothing to do with specializing skills.

When people say you have to play a spell caster just ignore them. True a Bard is a better skill monkey than the rogue. It is also true that a bard can deal more damage than a rogue, but that doesn’t mean you have to play a Bard ….or an Inquisitor. That said I do think you need magic to be a skill monkey, so Use magic devise is very good and it could be smart to take a dip into a spellcasting class. One level Bard, Magus, Inquisitor or even Ranger could be a good option.

What is true however is that all classes can find and traps, they can even all find magic traps, but only a few classes can disable magic traps. It is also true that you don’t need a rogue or even any class that can disable traps to be able to deal with traps. There are other options.

What is also true is that most skills around mid levels becomes obsolete, at least unless you add magic to the picture.

If you want to be able to spot traps, scout, deal damage and don’t want many spells then I have to agree with blackbloodtroll . Ranger is the best option, but if rogue is what you want I think int 12 is enough so swap with con or char….or even str. Did you roll you stats or do you use point buy?
Tell us more about the rest of the group so we can help you more.


Omnitricks wrote:
I'm trying to use the skills that the rest of the party can't (e.g. disable device, umd) and do the stuff they won't either (stealth, escape artist, disguise) while trying to survive in combat while contributing (hence the ranged sniping build)

What, exactly, is the rest of the party? Beyond just classes, what roles are they filling?

You want the following skills:
Disable devices (i.e. dealing w/ traps)
UMD
Stealth (i.e. scouting, so also)
Perception
Disguise/Bluff (infiltrating/face)

And you want to be meaningful in combat in some fashion.

This is correct?

-James


Ninja can be cool. Most of the skills you want are available to them, as for trap detection, ninjas can take "trap spotter" instead of a ninja trick. It's not as versatile as the freebooter/trapper combo, but it's a good choice if you'd rather be SNEAKY! Although yeah, that can be verry setting dependent. Still, with a good GM, you can have it reflavored as a "disciplined thief" or something. THen again, that aint PFS legal so...

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