Downtime is a nice system of rules, but say I have a guild-house and I plan a big expansion. Add a bunch of rooms and a huge auditorium. Even x3 building speed for x3 labor it's still 90+ days. A huge amount of time.
Say, one would use fabricate to help the process, add quicken the construction of beams, foundation, floors and other mundane art-less construction work. How would you categorize this input in terms of speeding up construction?
Maybe there are other spells that can help? Or spells that do exactly what i want and I just missed them...
dot
A lyre of building should here but there are no rules for it.
It can produce 300 man days of labor every 30 min or 1GP/min of unskilled labor. The guild all would require 44.5 hours of playing to complete. The skill check to keep going should be trivial but you will need magic food and rest to pull it off in 1 session. If you assume the lyre provides skilled labor then the work value is at least 11 times as great. That means your hall is done in 4 hours.
I would allow for a faster but not cheaper guild hall.
This is awesome. Would have to spend some time calculation how this could work if integrated into Downtime systems...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I actually calculated out Lyre of Building effects for Downtime!
42 points of Labor / hour of playing.
How did I arrive at these numbers?
Well,
The effect produced in 30 minutes of playing is equal to the work of 100 humans laboring for 3 days.
Well, what is the worth of 1 man's labor for a day?
Commoner
Average stats: 10s (who’s more average than a Commoner?)
Profession (Builder) 1 Rank (Class Skill adds +3)
(Assuming conservative estimate of No Skill Focus - you may get better numbers if your GM allows them SF. Everyone gets 1 Feat, and I think it would be logical for commoners to put it toward their livelihood, but your GM may decide to be difficult.)
Take 10: 10+1+3 = 14
1gp, 4sp per day * 100 = 140 gp worth of labor
* 3 = 420 gp worth of labor
Labor (Bought Cost) = 20 gp
(again, assuming conservative estimate that your GM isn't going to let you count this as the cheaper earned cost)
420/20 = 21 points of Labor for 30 minutes of playing OR 42 Labor per hour
Remember, you can pour in extra labor to speed up construction.
Now the PF rules don't specifically say anything about this next point, but I couldn't help but think - various guilds/unions aren't gonna be too happy about some magic trinket robbing their laborers of an honest day's work and an honest day's pay, especially if you're building in town, flaunting your fancy Lyre in front of everyone.
However, a 3.something product from Mongoose publishing called "Strongholds and Dynasties" did address this specifically:
A lyre of building is the single most potent magical item available for a stronghold constructor. So long as the lyre player can continue playing, the work will continue to get done.
Even if he or she has to stop, the use of the lyre may be resumed after a week has elapsed, meaning that elaborate projects can be completed in next to no time.
What this remarkably powerful item cannot do is to conjure building materials out of nothing. In order to use a lyre of building to assist with a construction project, the necessary materials must be ready and within 50 feet of the construction site. A lyre of building may not add any master building features or special features such as secret doors. It may carry out building work that does not require material, such as the digging of trenches or the raising of embankments.Even so, it is still a very potent item and has more potential to unbalance a game than is immediately obvious. For this reason, the Games Master may choose to limit the powers of a lyre of building, deeming that it may only construct buildings that require 2 or fewer ranks in Knowledge (architecture & engineering) to make.
Building laborers, especially dwarves, hate lyres of building with the passion of any worker who is robbed of a job by a device that can do it for less money. They will frequently refuse to work on a project if it is known that the builder intends to use a lyre. Dwarves consider them a travesty, an easy dodge that insults any true practitioner of the builder’s craft. It is a point of pride among members of stonemasons’ guilds to smash them, while wizards and sorcerers who construct them are targeted with hate mail and sometimes with physical violence. It is no small thing for a man to lose his livelihood to a gadget, however wondrous that gadget may be.
It may be much more than 42...
Alternatively, you can choose to instead earn 1 point of Goods, Influence, Labor, or Magic.
So unskilled work can ear you 1 labor for 1 day. That's 300 labor per hour of playing... no?
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I made a post about the Lyre of Building previously, copied here for convenience...
I found a reference you can use in the mean time; according to the follower section on page 80, 2 followers working one day equal one point of Labor. Using that number, you can approximate that one Labor equals 16 man-hours. It is also stated that you can spend extra Labor to complete buildings quicker on page 92. Using these two points in combination, a Lyre of Building generates (100 men x 3days x 8 hours=2400 man-hours/16 man-hours) 150 Labor per 30 minutes of being played.
Since the base spell Fabricate references the caster's skill at crafting when making complex stuff, I think the GP value should be the player's skill at crafting at 300 * DayJob worth of GP per 30 minutes of playing. I also think it should be limited to 8 hours of playing just like magic crafting is limited to 8 hours.
Still, that gives you 4800 * DayJob is GP. This is the increase in value since you still need the 1/3 initial cost of materials. My craft skill at Take-10 is 23. That means my skill nets me 2.3 gp per man-day, or 1,380 gp per hour of playing. Max 11,040 gp for an 8-hour day, once a week. Add in the material cost, and I turn 5,520 gp into 16,560 each week.
Currently looking into making ships.
/cevah
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It may be much more than 42...
So unskilled work can ear you 1 labor for 1 day. That's 300 labor per hour of playing... no?Alternatively, you can choose to instead earn 1 point of Goods, Influence, Labor, or Magic.
Oh hey! I forgot about that, thanks!
Once a week, its strings can be strummed so as to produce chords that magically construct buildings, mines, tunnels, ditches, etc. The effect produced in 30 minutes of playing is equal to the work of 100 humans laboring for 3 days.
No, my friend - that's 300 Labor per half hour of playing.
($)_($)
Boom-town, here we come!
Of course, whether or not that Labor is "savable/exchangeable" or has to be used right then and there is another matter (best left to circumstances of a specific campaign and group interpretation). As discussed before, townsfolk may not want the services of your Lyre if a new irrigation ditch for their field means you're taking food off the table of their family, friends, and neighbors.
Taking into account the fact that using magic to take jobs away from workmen will make people unhappy, I also houserule for my games:
Unless measures are taken to prevent it, using magic for construction (i.e. lyre of building) more than once in a settlement per month increases Unrest by 1 due to workers going on strike.
Likewise on the Downtime scale, the local suppliers are likely to start charging you bought price for goods and labor, even if you take time to earn it.
Although I don't think the LoB is gonna be completely despised in a settlement if used appropriately during times of great need. I'm willing to bet that during (or even soon after) a siege, natural disaster, or monster attack, even the most curmudgeony dwarven mason would rather (begrudgingly, of course) have a Lyre's effects save his home and family than see his wife and children crushed in the rubble.
So if a town is about to face a siege or monster attack, then trading 300 points of Labor making very quick defenses seems to me a very reasonable exchange for 100 Influence in the desperate town you're helping out.
You can trade 3 points of Goods, Labor, Influence, or Magic for 1 point of Goods, Labor, or Influence. Under certain circumstances, the GM may allow you to trade these resources at a 2-for-1 rate rather than the normal 3-for-1. You can trade 5 points of Goods, Labor, or Influence for 1 point of Magic.
The big advantage of the Lyre is that it gives you Labor, however you calculate it. With more Labor, you can get stuff built faster.
You may divide the Time price for a room by 2, 3, or 4 by spending 2, 3, or 4 times its Labor price. You may divide the Time price for a team by 2, 3, or 4 by spending 2, 3, or 4 times its Influence price.
If you're willing to allow legacy sources such as the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook (which may be available freely online now, as it's an old edition - check for yourself) then spell & magic item help goes something like this (I'll do my best to throw in my adjustments to account for the PF update where I can).
A couple notes about SBG terminology. It had "Basic", "Fancy", and "Luxury" levels for many rooms - the difference between taking a dump in a bucket in the corner of a hovel and wiping with a handful of straw and taking one while sitting atop an embroidered cushion atop a carved marble chair in a perfumed chamber appointed with fine arts and a servant standing by to wipe your royal arse with silk (yes, they actually had servants like that in medieval times - it was a very important and powerful position).
PF Downtime just has the "Furnished" Augmentation that achieves a similar function.
SBG measured rooms by "Stronghold Spaces" which were roughly 20'x20'x10' (but stated it wasn't "rigidly defined in
terms of square footage"). In PF Downtime, our room squares can be as small as a 5'x5' broom closet, a 16th of the size of an SBG Stronghold Space.
Air walk, fly, or levitate: –25% of cost adjustment for height (PF Downtime doesn't actually have any official rules (that I've seen yet) for building up besides the Arboreal Augmentation, but there you go.
1 casting/8 squares
Fabricate: -35 for Furnished Rooms –5% for other squares
1 casting/8 squares
Move earth: –3% per squares on ground floor, moats for free
1 casting/16 squares; 1 casting required per 750 sq. ft. of the moat, up to 10 ft. deep.
Stone shape: –5% per squares with hewn stone walls
1 casting/6 squares
Telekinesis: –50% of cost adjustment for height
1 casting/2 squares
Wall of stone(9th-level): –15% on hewn stone walls
1 casting/2 squares
Wall of stone(12th-level): –50% on hewn stone walls
1 casting/2 squares
Wall of stone(16th-level): hewn stone walls free
1 casting/2 squares
Wall of stone(20th-level): hewn stone walls free
1 casting/4 squares
Wood shape: –5% per space with wood walls
1 casting/8 squares
Also from the SBG:
Do-It-Yourself Spellcasting
If you can cast those spells yourself or somehow entice a spellcaster to do so for free, you can earn a discount. Note that the discounts shown are cumulative.
Also keep in mind settlement spending limits.
Spending Limits
The population of a settlement limits how much help you can get on a given day. The numbers in Table: Settlement Spending Limits represent the limit of how much Goods, Influence, and Labor you can utilize in settlement each day. Even if you have a lot of Goods and Labor at your disposal from favors and such, a tiny settlement might have only a few hands to spare to turn that capital into finished projects.
Table: Settlement Spending Limits
Settlement Spending Limit Per Day (Goods, Influence, Or Labor)
Thorp 2
Hamlet 4
Village 10
Small Town 15
Large town 25
Small city 35
Large city 50
Metropolis 65
So 300 Labor/30 minutes (or 10 Labor/minute) seems like you're getting an excessive amount, but it's really way more than you can even spend in a day.