I've asked this question and have been receiving various responses, so I figured I'd pose it here in the rules forum.
At 1st level, the spell warrior can grant a +1 enhancement bonus to the weapons (including ammunition) of allies within 60 feet.
So, does it affect improvised weapons?
I believe you count as your own ally, if that's what you are referring to...
Oh, right. I thought you were emphasizing "your ally" but you were emphasizing wielding. Yeah, I agree.
I'm not sure if Spell Warrior Skalds can turn mundane items into magical weapons with their ability.
The CRB FAQ on improvised weapons states that "Incidentally, using the longspear as an improvised weapon in this way would not allow you to benefit from any magical enhancements it may possess, nor would you add benefits that apply when attacking with a longspear (such as Weapon Focus (longspear), but you would apply any benefits from using an improvised weapon (such as Catch Off-Guard)."
To me, this mean that things that are magically enchanted as weapons don't gain the bonuses when used as improvised weapons.
If we assume the ability can even affect something that isn't a weapon under normal circumstances, say a frying pan, then we acknowledge that the frying pan is now a magical weapon. [1) It is a weapon (required for the ability to even work); and 2) It is now magical from the ability.] This magical weapon is being used as an improvised weapon, much like the longspear in the FAQ, thus it wouldn't gain any benefit from the magical enhancements.
Additionally, you wouldn't gain any bonus on attacking with a darkwood/adamantine pole. It wouldn't be a masterwork weapon, just a masterwork item. These are different things. One gives +1 to hit and the other gives circumstance bonuses.
Finally, you can use Masterwork Transformation on something that you intend to use as an improvised weapon, but it also will not give it +1 to hit. It will just make your object into its normal really good quality item. E.g. - Frying Pan is now Masterwork Frying Pan with +2 to Craft(Pancakes).
Right, so my interpretation of that same faq is that when something is enchanted as one weapon (say a spear) and it is used as an improvised weapon, the enchantment doesn't apply (as it was enchanted as a spear, not as an improvised weapon).
I think this is a separate issue, because the song enchants all weapons. The skald ability enchants any weapon that is used by allies. If you use a natural weapon, it is enchanted. If you use a spear, it is enchanted. If you use an improvised weapon, it is enchanted.
My argument is that an improvised weapon is a weapon. Inspire Courage (which applies to weapon damage) applies to improvised weapons, which proves that it is a "weapon". Since it is a weapon, it gets enchanted by the skald's song.
The FAQ is a corner case because the spear was enchanted, but is not being used as a spear. For the skald's song, all weapons are enchanted.
In my opinion, improvised weapons aren't weapons. They are just mundane items that you are making attacks with despite their non-weaponness. This is supported by the fact that you cannot have masterwork (+1 to hit) or magical versions of the items crafted. If they aren't weapons, then they wouldn't classify for magi or SW skalds.
If we consider improvised weapons to be weapons, then we follow the FAQ. 1) Is your magical frying pan weapon magical? Yes. 2) Are you making an improvised weapon attack? Yes. 3) Then, you do not "benefit from any magical enhancements it may possess, nor would you add benefits that apply when attacking with" said weapon. Thus, they qualify for the ability to apply, but you don't actually gain the benefits because improvised attacks with magical weapons don't get the bonuses of the magical properties.
Inspire Courage (which applies to weapon damage) applies to improvised weapons, which proves that it is a "weapon". Since it is a weapon, it gets enchanted by the skald's song.
You didn't finish the train of thought, which goes "And since it is a weapon (just like a spear), we follow the FAQ and see that an improvised weapon usage of a weapon doesn't get the magical abilities added when you strike in such a manner."
The FAQ is far from a corner case. It is literally identical to your proposed scenario under your interpretation.
In my opinion, improvised weapons aren't weapons. They are just mundane items that you are making attacks with despite their non-weaponness. This is supported by the fact that you cannot have masterwork (+1 to hit) or magical versions of the items crafted. If they aren't weapons, then they wouldn't classify for magi or SW skalds.
An improvised weapon is a weapon. Just because you can't buy a flaming crowbar doesn't mean you can't use it to kill someone. Something that you use to attack someone is a weapon, in every sense of the word. Do you add IC to improvised weapons? If you do, you are acknowledging that it is a weapon, because IC adds to Weapon damage.
If we consider improvised weapons to be weapons, then we follow the FAQ. 1) Is your magical frying pan weapon magical? Yes. 2) Are you making an improvised weapon attack? Yes. 3) Then, you do not "benefit from any magical enhancements it may possess, nor would you add benefits that apply when attacking with" said weapon. Thus, they qualify for the ability to apply, but you don't actually gain the benefits because improvised attacks with magical weapons don't get the bonuses of the magical properties.In my opinion, improvised weapons aren't weapons. They are just mundane items that you are making attacks with despite their non-weaponness. This is supported by the fact that you cannot have masterwork (+1 to hit) or magical versions of the items crafted. If they aren't weapons, then they wouldn't classify for magi or SW skalds.
I agree we should follow the faq, but I have a much stricter interpretation of that faq than you do. The faq says if something is enchanted as one type of weapon and you use it as another, you don't gain the benefits of the first type of weapon it is. So a +1 spear used as an improvised weapon doesn't get the +1 from the enchanted spearpoint.
I take the faq just as that. You seem to think the faq means that an improvised weapon can never be enchanted or, at the very least, that it can never benefit from an enchantment. But that is not what the faq says.
The difference in this case is that I am not using a spear as an improvised weapon. I am using an improvised weapon as an improvised weapon. So when I'm using it to fight and the song enchants it, it is a +1 improvised weapon. It gains the benefits, just as if you had used a +1 spear as a spear.
So, under your interpretation, your weapon (which it needs to be classified as in order to be enchanted) is not a weapon like a spear, despite both things being weapon (in your interpretation)?
It is either a weapon or it isn't. If it is a weapon and you make an attack with it as an improvised weapon, then the FAQ definitively applies. If it isn't a weapon, then you cannot enchant it. You can't claim its a weapon for one part and then claim well its not quite a weapon in the second part.
No, that's not what I'm saying.
I'm saying they are both weapons, so they both benefit from Enhance Weapons.
We are simply interpreting the FAQ differently. I think the FAQ is saying that when something is enchanted as one type of weapon and used as another, you don't get the benefits of the original enchantment. If you had a flaming whip and strangled someone with it, you wouldn't do fire damage while you strangled them.
I think that is the limit of what the faq is saying. You seem to think that the faq states that Improvised weapons can never be enchanted, or benefit from enchantment.
When I am using a crowbar as a weapon, it is a weapon. Do you agree? If someone was murdered with a crowbar, would the police say: "Where is the murder implement-used-as-a-weapon?" No, they would say: "Where is the murder weapon?".
Something used as a weapon is a weapon. It even has the word weapon in its name: Improvised Weapon.
I am not taking an enchanted spear and using it as a different type of weapon. I am using the crowbar as an improvised weapon, so it is a weapon. I am fighting with it. The skald starts his song, which makes the weapons of all of his allies gain an enhancement bonus. Is the crowbar that I'm hitting someone with a weapon? Yes. Then it gains an enhancement bonus from the song.
I think you're stuck on someone trying to buy a masterwork crowbar that gets an enhancement bonus to attack or something, but I'm not arguing that. I'm saying if you use something as a weapon, it's a weapon. If you are using a weapon when the skald's song goes off, you get the bonus.
So which of my premises do you disagree with? You stated that an improvised weapon is not a weapon. If that is the case then, yes, the skald's song wouldn't work. But I strongly disagree with the view that an "improvised weapon" is not a "weapon".
|
I read the FAQ as a weapon like a long spear is (effectively) a combo weapon, like a dagger pistol, it is a long spear + improvised quarterstaff combo. And like a dagger pistol, enhancements that apply to one part of the weapon do not apply to the other. (I also don't see anything wrong with masterworking a tool as an improvised weapon, but it wouldn't make it masterwork for whatever it's original purpose was. And it would cost like masterworking a weapon, not like masterworking a tool.)
Would you allow someone to arcane strike their ale stein?
I read the FAQ as a weapon like a long spear is (effectively) a combo weapon, like a dagger pistol, it is a long spear + improvised quarterstaff combo. And like a dagger pistol, enhancements that apply to one part of the weapon do not apply to the other. (I also don't see anything wrong with masterworking a tool as an improvised weapon, but it wouldn't make it masterwork for whatever it's original purpose was. And it would cost like masterworking a weapon, not like masterworking a tool.)
Would you allow someone to arcane strike their ale stein?
Me? Absolutely.
Arcane strike makes your weapons get bonus damage and act as magical. If I use the stein as an improvised weapon, it is a weapon, so arcane strike applies. I also get brownie points with Cayden Cailean, which is always a plus. ;-)
If you are using the crowbar as a weapon, then the crowbar becomes fiery or whatever you would like. However, just like the whip in your example or the longspear in the example in the FAQ, the magical bonuses to the weapon do not apply to improvised weapon attacks with that weapon.
It cannot be a weapon for the purposes of applying magical bonuses and then not be a weapon for purposes of improvised weaponry, which is what you are arguing. The FAQ is very clear that weapons used as improvised weapons do not gain their magical bonuses.
"Incidentally, using the longspear as an improvised weapon in this way would not allow you to benefit from any magical enhancements it may possess, nor would you add benefits that apply when attacking with a longspear (such as Weapon Focus (longspear), but you would apply any benefits from using an improvised weapon (such as Catch Off-Guard)."
Even if you consider the crowbar to be a weapon and that it gains magical bonuses from your song, it still doesn't apply if you use the weapon as an improvised weapon.
You are still picking and choosing when your crowbar or flagpole is a weapon and not a weapon in order to gain the most benefit to your character.
The FAQ provides three clauses in relation to improvised weapons:
1) The item's magical enhancements do not work when using something as an improvised weapon.
This is what explicitly stops you from benefiting from Fiery on your crowbar.
2) You don't gain any benefit explicitly stated for that item, such as Weapon Focus.
Irrelevant at the moment.
3) You gain any benefits that would apply to improvised weapons.
This is the clause that would allow Arcane Strike and Inspire Courage to work with improvised weapons.
No, I hold that the crowbar is an improvised weapon in all cases and should benefit as such.
I understand your point, I just disagree with how you are interpreting the FAQ. Either you don't understand my point, or you are just deliberately ignoring it. I can't tell, so I'll try again to explain where we differ.
"Using the longspear in this way (as an improvised weapon) would not allow you to benefit from any magical enhancements it may possess"
Your interpretation: An improvised weapon can NEVER benefit from magical enhancements.
My interpretation: If a magical weapon (spear, sword, etc) is used as an improvised weapon, it doesn't gain the magical enhancements. The enhancement$ Were placed on the weapon as a spear or a sword.
In the case we are debating, I'm not using a sword as a club or something. I'm using an improvised weapon as an improvised weapon. I'm using a weapon, which gains an enhancement from the song.
You first said you believe that an improvised weapon is not a weapon. I flat out disagree with that, but nothing I can say will sway you.
If you concede that point, or at least don't pursue it further, then our main disagreement is with the differing interpretations of the FAQ. I'm taking it for what it is, you're extrapolating it to say something it is not (in my opinion).
Actually, you are not "using an improvised weapon as an improvised weapon." There is no such thing as an improvised weapon. It doesn't exist. You are using a crowbar or a flagpole as an improvised weapon. You can't walk up to a blacksmith and say "Hand me your finest improvised weapon." and expect anything but a weird stare. Improvised weapon is a term given to objects when they are being used in place of traditional weaponry.
Following your own logic, an improvised weapon is a weapon in its own right. Yes? Thusly, if this magical weapon is used as an improvised weapon, it doesn't gain the magical enhancements. This is perfectly in line with your interpretation. In fact, it is a recitation of your interpretation. You are too hung up on whether it is being used correctly, but your own usage of the item is incorrect. You are bashing someone with a crowbar or flagpole. This is not the "correct" usage of the item either. You are still trying to claim it is a weapon and then that it is not a weapon when it is convenient for your cause.
If an improvised weapon doesn't exist, why do feats an traits that apply to improvised weapons exist?
You can't have someone craft an improvised weapon for you. The minute you use something as an improvised weapon, that's what it is.
An improvised weapon is a weapon, yes. When I'm using it as such and the skald starts singing, it is granted an enhancement bonus. Why? Because it is a weapon.
If the song turned the crowbar into a magic spear that I used as a club, I would agree with you. But it doesnt. Im not using an already encounter weapon as an improvised weapon. I'm using an improvised weapon, which is a weapon, so it gains an enhancement bonus.
If we can't even agree about what we are disagreeing about, there's not much point in you and I continuing this further, right?
Ok, so while I was driving home I thought of another example that might help. You think I’m being wishy washy about changing when something is or isn’t a weapon,and I see how you could interpret that from what I’ve said. Allow me to clarify--something’s use defines what it is. If a crowbar is in my backpack, it is not a weapon. If I’m using it to open a door, it’s not a weapon. If I club someone with it, it is a weapon at that moment and benefits from the skald’s song.
I think this should always be the case if you consider certain examples.
Suppose I buy a steak knife. The maker of the knife is creating the knife for the intent of me to cut my meat with it. If I take the steak knife and stab someone with it, is it a weapon? I say yes.
Suppose I am a baseball player with a baseball bat. The maker designed it to be a tool in a game. If I smack someone with it, is it a weapon at that moment? I say yes.
Now consider that in pathfinder terms. I can have someone make me a masterwork club. The wood carver makes it with the purpose of me bashing skulls with it. That’s a weapon, right? Of course. What if I take a chair and break off one of the chair legs. Now I’m holding the chair leg. Was its intended use as a weapon? No. But when I hold it in my hand with the intent to bash someone with it, it is a weapon.
What distinguishes a chair leg from a club? They both are blunt wooden objects that are being used to harm someone. The only difference is the intent with which they were created, which I don’t think matters.
As far as appearing on the weapon chart, consider this:
Suppose I create a dart board and fashion some darts to use as a game in a tavern in Riddleport. If someone takes one of those darts and throws it at someone, is it a weapon? I say yes, even though it was intended to be a game piece.
So, doesn’t an item’s use define what it is?