Hey there! This is my first time posting on the messageboards, but I could really use your help, guys. Be warned, long wall of text incoming, and no TL;DR for obvious reasons. You can skip to the questions, though, but miss on background info.
So first thing’s first, you all need some background here. I’ll be starting a new game with several friends (new and old) this summer, and we’re looking to change up the setup a bit and have someone else other than me GM for a change. The new GM has decent experience as a player, but this will be his first time in the big chair. I myself am the most experienced at the table (having both GMed and played), with another person also having decent player exp. The other 2 players will be completely new to Pathfinder, but we all have serious board and video gaming experience, so it’s not all bad. [It’s also worth mentioning that I have a lot of faith in the new GM and am quite sure that he’ll live up to the challenge – so no advice on that part needed]
Now, our problem lies in choosing an AP to go with. After a lot of research on my part, scouring forums and the like, I’ve shortened the list of potentials to just two: The ever-recommended Rise of the Rune Lords (Anniversary Edition, of course) and Carrion Crown. Curse of the Crimson Throne made it to the last 3 as well, but after some preliminary discussions with the group it was sort of discarded – both due to the feeling that the new players would want something more iconic as a first experience, and because the whole urban feel didn’t sound appealing for anyone other than me (sadness…). Nevertheless, I’ll take recommendations for CotCT as well, and any other AP or set of modules you guys think works. My main request for help, however, is directly related to RotRL vs. CC.
As a final note before the questions: We will be playing in long sessions – full day or all weekend even - every two weeks for the next couple of months (and then tone it down to more standard sessions if we keep going after summer). So we could potentially work through a chapter of an AP in a single “session”, presuming the GM can prep all he needs and we don’t all get tired/bored after 20 hours of Pathfinder. Of course that might end up not working, but we’ll try it nonetheless.
Now, I read all about the pros and cons of each of the two APs, so I've come here to ask a few very specific questions instead. Things I couldn't find in other threads. So here goes:
1. Which of the two APs would be best if we end up stopping after just 2-3 books? Since I'm not sure how the whole group will work out in the end (player count, IRL problems, work, time constraints, etc.) we might very well end up stopping the adventure after a couple of months. My concern here is that if we go with RotRL and stop mid-way through, we’ll all be disappointed – epic quest with no conclusion and all that.
2. How hard is CC compared to RotRL for new players, especially if we end up with just 3 PCs? I’ve read in several places that CC is rather hard for certain setups (no cleric, for example), as well as being far more heavy on the quirky enemies with DR and such. How much harder is it compared to RotRL? Is the difficulty even worth considering when choosing between the APs as long as we play smart?
3. If we do end up running with 3 players (one of them new), will we need to go with Gestalt characters for CC in order to not die horribly? Or maybe just start at level 2 and always be 1 lvl ahead of the curve, so to speak? An NPC joining the party is out of the question, the new GM has more than enough on his plate as it is, and he won't feel confident enough to modify the CR of encounters and such either. So if he runs the AP as written, will 3 normal PCs be enough?
4. Is GM-ing Carrion Crown a lot more complicated than RotRL, or does it just seem that way at first glance? This is not about the whole horror atmosphere, we can cover that bit. I'm talking specifically about how overwhelmed a new GM would feel running each of the two, and if it’s a big difference. RotRL looks to me to be as standard as it gets, whereas CC has some additional rules and a lot of uncommon enemies/monsters the GM needs to learn to use.
5. Lastly, which of the two APs needs an arcane caster more? Judging by my friends’ initial thoughts, and my previous experience with them, I doubt we will have a single arcane caster at the table – this includes bards and such, and likely not even points in UMD for wands. On the other hand, divine magic will be aplenty, and we have the smash-over-head-hard aspect covered as well. Arrows and out-of-combat skills are also covered. Which of the two APs will be the hardest to play with no arcane magic on hand given these circumstances? (No spoilers though, please!)
That about covers it, I think. I might update the list of questions if anything else pops up. Thank you all in advance for any advice and help provided!
Carrion Crown will be perfect for you. I'll explain in full when I'm on my PC... the website update makes it way harder to post from my phone. ^_^
Thanks, looking forward to the details!
1. Carrion Crown, because you can have them face one of the villains early and procure a *REDACTED* from them, therefore preventing the need to take action later.
2. It's about the same, if we are being honest. Parties with a Cleric/Oracle character make it MUCH easier, for obvious reasons, but they are not a necessity. You would need to add a bit more loot to compensate though, so PCs are still at the correct power level.
3. Gestalt is always awesome and, if you are only running it with 3 players, would definitely help with party survival, not to mention utility.
4. Again, not really. If you have difficulty figuring out how to run some of the monsters after reading their stat block tactics, just watch a horror movie that they were drawn from, so to speak. In some cases I actually changed the encounters to make them more terrifying to PCs. If you have difficulties coming up with ways to terrify PCs
5. About the same, really. Blasters play an important role no matter what AP they are in and the general spells that arcane casters get are never a bad thing in a campaign.
Contributor
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Here we go!
1) Broken Moon ends with a boss fight that wraps up the story to that point pretty elegantly. It's child's play to make that the conclusion of events.
I still highly recommend the whole story (we're in Book 6 right now), but if you have to stop after three books, CC is where you want to do it.
2) The APs are pretty easy for smart players. If your group has a cleric or oracle, you'll be fine. If you're the type of group that uses a lot of Player's Companions and such, it'll be a breeze.
It wasn't out when we started, but there's a feat called Bless Equipment that looks like a lot of fun.
3) You do not need gestalt for 3 players. Gestalt will crush this AP if you play with any level of optimization. I ran a gestalt campaign for 5 years - it's pretty ridiculous.
I would suggest 20 or 25 point buy and letting the xp naturally work things out. In my experience, three 25-point buy PCs were about right for an AP.
4) CC is a little more complicated - the biggest thing is understanding how haunts work. If he runs from the book, though, the monsters shouldn't be too bad.
5) In CC, a cleric is more important by far (at least for Books 1-3). Let Channel Energy be your fireball. ^_^
Any questions?
Here we go!
1) Broken Moon ends with a boss fight that wraps up the story to that point pretty elegantly. It's child's play to make that the conclusion of events.
I still highly recommend the whole story (we're in Book 6 right now), but if you have to stop after three books, CC is where you want to do it.
2) The APs are pretty easy for smart players. If your group has a cleric or oracle, you'll be fine. If you're the type of group that uses a lot of Player's Companions and such, it'll be a breeze.
It wasn't out when we started, but there's a feat called Bless Equipment that looks like a lot of fun.
3) You do not need gestalt for 3 players. Gestalt will crush this AP if you play with any level of optimization. I ran a gestalt campaign for 5 years - it's pretty ridiculous.
I would suggest 20 or 25 point buy and letting the xp naturally work things out. In my experience, three 25-point buy PCs were about right for an AP.
4) CC is a little more complicated - the biggest thing is understanding how haunts work. If he runs from the book, though, the monsters shouldn't be too bad.
5) In CC, a cleric is more important by far (at least for Books 1-3). Let Channel Energy be your fireball. ^_^
Any questions?
1) That sounds great! I myself am lobbying for CC, but some of the others are not so sure. But knowing that we can end after book 3 is a great + and will help us decide, thanks!
2&3) Well OK then, we'll just go for 6+2d6 stat rolls, should net around the same average stats as 20 to 25 point buy. Smart plays and being prepared go a long way as well, so I wasn't too worried, but we will be going with a no-xp approach, just levelling up as the AP recommends, at various points in the story. So even with 3 players, we'll still never be ahead in any way.
4) Are the haunts already present in the beginning of book 1? If he has a bit of time to get used to the other aspects of GM-ing before having to deal with haunts, he'll do just fine. And is there anything other than the haunts and the whole reputation thing with the town?
5) No Clerics in the party, I'm sure. An Inquisitor (me), and maybe an Oracle, but I doubt it. Low chance of channel energy, to be honest. However, I wasn't asking about the arcane caster part in terms of combat. It was more about out-of-combat utility (teleport, etc.), as well as the general fact that we'll be missing an entire bag of tricks. Are there any encounters/puzzles/moments where we'll be stumped without a wizard/sorc?
Thanks a bunch for the detailed reply, Kalindlara, it helps a lot!
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The haunts show up in Book 1, but not right off the bat - he might well be fine. The reputation issue is slightly bigger - tell him not to drain 1 point each day, and he should be fine.
You might miss an arcane caster here and there in Book 2, for spells like fly and feather fall. I won't go into detail, but there are no handrails.
For the most part, though, the APs are written for varied enough parties that you should be fine, especially with good prep. Remember to have a good kit - slashing and bludgeoning weapons, ranged weapons, potions of fly, etc.
Make sure you can cast cure spells. There's a cheap magic item in the first book, and you might be able to buy (or make) more. Weapons, though, are no good against haunts.
For the most part, though, the APs are written for varied enough parties that you should be fine, especially with good prep. Remember to have a good kit - slashing and bludgeoning weapons, ranged weapons, potions of fly, etc.
Make sure you can cast cure spells. There's a cheap magic item in the first book, and you might be able to buy (or make) more. Weapons, though, are no good against haunts.
Well I think we'll be fine all in all. Definitely not planning to go anywhere without being fully prepared in terms of equipment and potions. We'll get a wand of CLW as soon as possible, and just be careful for the rest.
Can I ask for some non-spoiler hints about what exactly you mean by "weapons are no good against haunts"? Is there any other way of dealing with such events apart from Channel Energy (if that's a solution in the first place)?
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Contributor
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For the most part, though, the APs are written for varied enough parties that you should be fine, especially with good prep. Remember to have a good kit - slashing and bludgeoning weapons, ranged weapons, potions of fly, etc.
Make sure you can cast cure spells. There's a cheap magic item in the first book, and you might be able to buy (or make) more. Weapons, though, are no good against haunts.
Well I think we'll be fine all in all. Definitely not planning to go anywhere without being fully prepared in terms of equipment and potions. We'll get a wand of CLW as soon as possible, and just be careful for the rest.
Can I ask for some non-spoiler hints about what exactly you mean by "weapons are no good against haunts"? Is there any other way of dealing with such events apart from Channel Energy (if that's a solution in the first place)?
Only positive energy works against haunts, and nothing else. Cure spells, and Channel Energy.
There's an item in the AP - you'll see - but it's not much.
For the most part, though, the APs are written for varied enough parties that you should be fine, especially with good prep. Remember to have a good kit - slashing and bludgeoning weapons, ranged weapons, potions of fly, etc.
Make sure you can cast cure spells. There's a cheap magic item in the first book, and you might be able to buy (or make) more. Weapons, though, are no good against haunts.
Well I think we'll be fine all in all. Definitely not planning to go anywhere without being fully prepared in terms of equipment and potions. We'll get a wand of CLW as soon as possible, and just be careful for the rest.
Can I ask for some non-spoiler hints about what exactly you mean by "weapons are no good against haunts"? Is there any other way of dealing with such events apart from Channel Energy (if that's a solution in the first place)?
Only positive energy works against haunts, and nothing else. Cure spells, and Channel Energy.
There's an item in the AP - you'll see - but it's not much.
Hm, the lack of Channel Energy will be a problem then. However, as I remember from skimming through the Haunts rules, you can destroy a haunt permanently only by doing a certain act à la Supernatural, the TV show - salting and burning the bodies, and the like. Can one do those things to destroy it before/without neutralizing the haunt first via positive energy? If so, then we should still be fine without a Cleric/Oracle, it'll just be a lot harder, right?
As for the suggestion about Occult Adventures, we don't really have the patience to wait for that. We will incorporate any items and such that show up in the book when it's released, but we need something else in th meantime.
Again, thank you very much for all the help, Kalindlara!
Feel free to PM me if you need anything else.
If your GM is willing to create an account to do so, I can give him more detailed advice or aid.
Happy gaming! ^_^
I'll do that if I ever need help again, thank you! And I'll tell the GM about your offer to help as well.