Any comments on this rogue Whip using Sap Adept build?

[IQuarent]

Ok, I've been wanting to build a Sap Adept whip user for a while now, and I finally got around to it. It was made under PFS rules.

Here what the build ended up looking like:

3rd level:

Dr. Jones

Human Lore Warden 2, Summoner 1

Initiative: +5
Perception +0

AC 18, Touch 13, Flat-footed 15 (Possible with the addition of Shield and/or Protection from Evil)

HP: 27 (10+6+5+(Con x 3)

Fort 6, Ref 4, Will 3

STR: 16, DEX: 16, Con: 14, INT: 8, WIS: 10, CHA, 12

Base attack: +2, CMB: +5, CMD: 18

Melee: MTW Whip +7(15 ft. reach) 1d4+3
Power attack: Whip +6, 1D4 +5
Full attack: MTW Whips(with possible trip) +5/+5, 1d4+3/1D4+1
Power Attack: MTW Whips +4/+4, 1D4+5/1D4+2

+1 damage to all attacks made when flanking (Dirt Fighter trait)

Spells:
1st, 2/day: Grease, Protection from Evil
0th: Acid Splash, Light, Read Magic, Detect Magic

Feats:
1: Weapon Prof. Whip (Fighter Bonus Feat)
1: Two-Weapon Fighting (Human Bonus Feat)
1: Weapon Focus: Whip
2: Whip Mastery (Fighter Bonus Feat)
2: Combat Expertise (Automatic Lore Warden Feat)
3: Power Attack currently, but possibly Improved Trip

Has a wand of Shield and a +1 chainshirt.

Eidolon: Purely defensive with the best AC I could give it. It has the Skilled evolution in Perception and Use Magic Device, with excellent Acrobatics as well for tumbling. Using Wands of Mage Armor and Cure Light Wounds, it can buff it's own AC, fight defensively for flank, or run around with its insane 45 ft. movement to heal party members. It can even heal itself!

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At this point in time he's definitely more of a fighter; he doesn't even have rogue levels yet. His damage is subpar, leading me to choose Power Attack over Improved trip, but it really depends on the party. Improved Trip is better for the build in the long run, but Power attack seems better at this point in time, especially considering he can trip people regardless of whether he has Improved Trip or not.

He fills a weird role of spot-healer + combat maneuver-based fighter with acceptable lethal damage(about the same as a greatsword).

7th level:

Dr. Jones

Human Lore Warden 2, Summoner 1, Rogue 4

Initiative: +6
Perception +7

AC 22, Touch 14, Flat-footed 18 (Possible with the addition of Shield and/or Protection from Evil)

HP: 66

Fort 8, Ref 10, Will 5

STR: 18(Belt of Strength +2), DEX: 18, Con: 14, INT: 8, WIS: 10, CHA, 12

Base attack: +5, CMB: +7(+2 for trip), CMD: 23

Melee: +1 Whip +11 (15 ft. reach) 1d4+5 (Sneak Attack 2D6+4)
Full attack: +1 Whips(with possible trip) +9/+9 1D4+5 (Sneak Attack 2D6+4)

+1 damage to all attacks made when flanking (Dirt Fighter trait)

Remember, most of the time he will either be flanking or attacking enemies who are prone, for a +2 or +4 bonus respectively.

Spells:
1st, 2/day: Grease, Protection from Evil
0th: Acid Splash, Light, Read Magic, Detect Magic

Abilities:
Sneak Attack +2D6
Trapfinding (+2)
Evasion
Rogue Talent: Combat Trick: Weapon Versatility
Trap Sense + 1
Rogue Talent: Ninja Trick: Combat Trick: Combat Reflexes

Feats:
1: Weapon Prof. Whip (Fighter Bonus Feat)
1: Two-Weapon Fighting (Human Bonus Feat)
1: Weapon Focus: Whip
2: Whip Mastery (Fighter Bonus Feat)
2: Combat Expertise (Automatic Lore Warden Feat)
3: Improved Trip (retrained)
5: Sap Adept (Rogue Talent)
5: Versatile Weapon
7: Combat Reflexes (Rogue Talent)
7: Improved Whip Mastery

Skills(the ones that matter):
Acrobatics +14, Disable Device + 16, Perception +7(+9 for traps), Sense Motive +10, Stealth +14

+2 mythril chainshirt, lots of wands to spells on his spell list, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Ring of Protection +1, Belt of Giant Strength +2

Eidolon: Exactly the same as level 3. Purely defensive with the best AC I could give it, with some minor power changes to ensure it lives(such as it's own wand of Shield). It has the Skilled evolution in Perception and Use Magic Device, with excellent Acrobatics as well for tumbling. Using Wands of Mage Armor and Cure Light Wounds, it can buff it's own AC, fight defensively for flank, or run around with its insane 45 ft. movement to heal party members, and even heal itself! The buff to Perception makes it able to find traps for me as I aid for a +14 check, and then I disable the traps myself.

Very few people would attack the eidolon unless they're being meta, because it poses no real threat and is not easily hit(it attacks defensively at -1 while in flank with Mage Armor for 22 AC at least, probably 26). I could see an enemy concluding to attack it when they see it running around with wands healing people...

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Okay, this is the point where the build starts to shine. Combat Reflexes + Improved Whip Mastery = Constant threat range in a radius of 15ft all around me. Improve Trip means all trip-able enemies will almost always be prone, as getting up provokes an attack of opportunity and I have 4 of AoOs each round.

Not only that, but he's beginning to do some real damage. A full attack from him, assuming it hits, would be 2D4+4D6+15. If he faces something immune to sneak attack, he simply pulls out his masterwork greatsword and does 2D6+6 a round instead, which is better than nothing.

Two levels from now his damage will REALLY be insane, the sneak attack alone reaching a total of 12D6+24. With Pressure Points(my level 9 rogue talent pick) I can do 4 Str/Dex damage a round simply by attacking. This happening while attack of opportunities and trips continue 4 times each round.

All the while filling every need of a classic rogue; traps etc.

Effort went into making him work at level one and then gradually get better, instead of being totally useless until the right feats fell into place.

So, what do you guys think?

[Bob Bob Bob]

What exactly is the goal here? Because the level 3 build is all over the place.

Level 3 problems:

Why summoner? Bard gets whip proficiency, spells, and can grab a familiar (go goat for a flanking buddy). Druid gets cure spells and an animal companion who can wear armor and has twice the HD. If you're using the eidolon as a mobile wand platform it's going to get popped super fast. It has a single HD and you've blown all of its evolution points on skilled. Or you didn't spend one on acrobatics and it's going to be attempting acrobatics checks against creatures more powerful than it with only a single rank in acrobatics (which it will inevitably fail). And it can't fight defensively or use total defense in any round it uses a wand. Oh, and as a note the only version of summoner currently allowed in PFS is unchained, so you would only have a single evolution point to spend if you want to stick to PFS rules.

Skilled is a +8 bonus and there's no taking 10 on UMD. Your eidolon will fail to use their wand successfully... 40% of the time? What's the eidolon's bonus with UMD and how often can it hit the DC 20 needed to use a wand?

You have @#$% for skills since you have 2 2+int classes (with a couple extra int-based skills from lore warden) and a negative int.

Your attack bonus on a TWF full attack is +3/+3, whips are not a light weapon.

1d4+5 is 7.5 damage. That is slightly more than the average damage of a greatsword... wielded by someone with 10 STR and no other bonuses. And that's your power attack damage. If your build picked up a greatsword instead and didn't power attack you would be doing 2d6+5 damage. 1d4+5 is not a damage-dealer.

If you're going for combat maneuvers you should take one more level of Lore Warden for the +2 bonus.

Also nevermind provoking, you fail to succeed on a combat maneuver against yourself 60% of the time.

You don't have Quick Draw, do you walk around holding your wand of shield or two whips? Do you spend the first round using the wand every time and then drop it? Sheath it? How does the wand of shield actually work if you don't have a round to buff?

Now the level 7 build.

Level 7 problems:

Your Will save sucks. A CR 5 mummy has a 50% chance to take you out just by existing.

Improved Whip Mastery only gives you a threatened range of 10 feet.

You can't trip someone who's standing up from prone. If you tripped them 10 feet away (when you first threaten them) there's absolutely nothing stopping them from, on their turn, standing up from prone (move), 5 foot stepping (no action), and attacking you. They'd provoke but you only hit for love taps anyway.

You're basically never going to get sneak attack on AoO. The eidolon is only medium with reach to match, you basically have to be within a 5-foot step of any enemy for them to be flanked by the eidolon on the AoO... in which case they 5-foot step.

Your attack bonus on a full attack is still wrong. You haven't actually fixed most of the previous problems (not enough damage, eidolon being a one-hit point wonder, eidolon can't use wand reliably, need a 14+ to trip yourself).

Seriously, even assuming sneak attack (and it's far from as guaranteed as you make it out to be) you're dealing 1d4+2d6+9 for an average of 18.5. Grab a greatsword and power attack with this exact same build for 2d6+12, or an average of 19 damage.

Overall you have a lot of very important problems.

You haven't focused enough on CMB to reliably trip. You regularly fail against yourself and you're the easiest kind of opponent, a classed humanoid. Monsters generally have higher CMDs.

You handwave far too much of the eidolon. What is its AC and where do all the numbers come from? You can't fight defensively if you use its wands. How often can it actually use wands? Mage armor gets a pass at hour/level but a wand of shield only lasts a minute. Cure light wounds to heal an ally that only activates 60% of the time is not odds I'd risk my life on. What is its acrobatics check? You already said you blew two evolution points on skilled for UMD and Perception, if you didn't spend it on acrobatics as well it only has 4+Dex or even less than your CMB, which already fails to work most of the time. It still only has a single HD. That's a single fireball, or a breath weapon, or a couple rounds next to a burning skeleton.

For every thing you list the eidolon as being capable of doing, that round you're not getting sneak attack. Because the eidolon is somewhere else. You can't assume sneak attack if your eidolon ever does anything else.

Your numbers aren't that good. Target for CR 7 is AC 20 (from monster creation guidelines). If you TWF you have only a 40% chance to hit. Even with flanking and prone you only have a 70% chance to hit, and you don't have a way to reliably give prone. If you substitute one of the attacks for a trip... well, it has the same (terrible) chance as your normal trips, with the added bonus of -4 for TWF. Your damage without sneak attack is abysmal and even with it you're only barely scraping by. Oh, and constructs (not common) and undead (super common) are immune to nonlethal (and thus all the bonus damage from the sap adept line).

[Righty_]

I'd get rid of the summoner level, switch it for maneuver master. Gives you better saves (potentially another maneuver feat (I recommend dirty trick) and the ability to kick people at 5'. You can also choose to do non lethal with sap master.

You really need just 1 more level of lore warden for the +2 cmb/cmd. Its a good help. After that (which is a choice I am currently making) keep going rogue or go up to level 5 monk for the additional benefits of maneuver master.

[IQuarent]

Bob Bob Bob I appreciate the advice and I like most of it but maybe you could tone it back from saying the build sucks/abysmal/sh**? Its really rude and it makes me defensive. No one likes people calling their builds sh**, which you literally did.

I had forgotten whips arent light. Thank you for reminding me. Ill try taking TWF at a later level, perhaps.

This isnt a first draft. Ive tried many of the things you suggested. Whip characters are NOT easy.

I tried it with bard. It was beyong awful. Utterly unworkable. Pretty much all Im getting is whip prof and cure light. Everything else is useless. Performance simply replaces the BAB it screwed my out of.

Yeah, damage sucks at first. Thats just how whip builds are. I also tried the same build without both summoner and without TWF. It was terrible. I go from racking up the sneak damage from 2-4 attacks to wow-anything-is-better-than-this.

I didnt consider druid, because Ive never made a druid in Pathfinder before. My companion would be better certainly, but MY AC would be garbage. Ill consider it.

Here's a big difference to consider Bob: If the eidolon gets killed, it can come back the next day. My companion gets killed? Not so simple. If Im having a puny monster following me around, it would be better if there were no real consequences for its death.

It can die every session and it wont matter. :)

But again, enemies attacking tiny monsters that arent even threatening them seems really meta. Why would they do that unless they knew how flank/sneak attack worked? "Yes, Im going to waste my round attacking an eagle or eidolon that does no damage instead of the fighter, caster, or literally anyone else."

Plus I still have other party members, AND I have 4 summon monster 1s... or at least I think I do. I had *just* finished making the build when I discovered the Summoner was banned, so I havent made those adjustments yet. I got the PDF and skimmed it. At first glance there didnt seem to be much difference, so I didnt notice the change in evolution points.

The eidolon would use wands when warranted and flank when warranted. Its called "flexibility". With a UMD of 14(12, +2 for wands Ive used before), my success rate is actually 70%, which is not bad at all for UMD at THIRD LEVEL.

The eidolon doesnt need to be good. It needs to be good ENOUGH. When I get into higher levels, this will become more of a problem. I knew these problems would happen, hence asking for advice.

BTW, moving in Grease makes them flat-footed. Just saying.

Yeah, the will save isnt great. He cant be good at EVERYTHING; a rogue with a crappy will save? Heavens above!

...but Ill work on it to see what I can do. I think Ill ditch Dirty Fighter for a +1 will trait.

F***ing of course my damage isnt going to be as good as a strength based power-attack user. Not until much later, that is. There is NOTHING I can do to change that.

Im not expecting to get sneak on AoOs. Why would I need to? The AoOs are ADDITIONAL damage. Calm down.

Yeah, creatures that cant be sneaked/non-lethaled are going to be a b**** to fight. So I either go in with a greatsword of trip them relentlessly.

Im not sure I understand the criticism of a whip build for having weaknesses that come from it being a whip build, such as the above two paragraphs I wrote. Of course it does. The whip builds Ive seen were made by GMs and STARTED at 8th level. I dont have that luxury. I have to make it workable as soon as possible, and I dont have feats to waste on alternative options. Martial proficiency with greatsword and longbow will have to do.

[Liz Courts]

Removed a couple of posts. You can offer critiques without being insulting. Also locking this thread.