What if the (original) rogue was intentionally designed to be sub-par because Paizo knew that people were natually inclined to dicks to their fellow party members as a rogue more than any other class so they needed to make sure that everyone else could shut them down with as little effort as possible?
Then why is the barbarian so powerful, johnnythexxxiv, WHY IS THE BARBARIAN SO POWERFUL?
Then why is the barbarian so powerful, johnnythexxxiv, WHY IS THE BARBARIAN SO POWERFUL?
Because Barbarians are right gentlemen and thus deserve their place among the better martials ;)
Interesting theory... although the fact that the paladin is the class that is easiest to be disruptive with got a significant power boost kinda blows a big hole in this theory's hull... ;-)
Ah, but the paladin at least is limited to being a dick for goodness! The rogue isn't.
Yes, Barbarians are such gentlemenThen why is the barbarian so powerful, johnnythexxxiv, WHY IS THE BARBARIAN SO POWERFUL?Because Barbarians are right gentlemen and thus deserve their place among the better martials ;)
This sarcasm offends me. Expect a firmly-worded letter of protest to be forthcoming.
The rogue however doesn't go around saying "You're not up to my moral and ethical standards, either you leave the party or I must."Interesting theory... although the fact that the paladin is the class that is easiest to be disruptive with got a significant power boost kinda blows a big hole in this theory's hull... ;-)Ah, but the paladin at least is limited to being a dick for goodness! The rogue isn't.
Instead that is usually what the rest of the party says to the rogue.
Let's not devolve this thread into a rogue hate thread though, let's either keep this to speculation on why the rogue is below average or use the title of the thread to add other topics into the discussion.
Let's not devolve this thread into a rogue hate thread though...Oh you sweet summer child...
I've been around on the forums here long enough (just over a year now) to know that my request is basically guaranteed to fall on deaf ears. When this thread inevitably goes the way of any other thread that mentions the effectiveness of the rogue, at least I'll be able to look back and say "whelp, I tried."
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I think it was simply a miscalculation on the math involved, a general disregard during the playtest, and too much reliance on the magical thought process of "paizo will clean up the talents and they will be good."
Which just did not materialize.
Finally a misguided belief that the rogue shouldn't be good at combat but also lacks the mechanics to excel at any point.
This sarcasm offends me. Expect a firmly-worded letter of protest to be forthcoming.Yes, Barbarians are such gentlemenThen why is the barbarian so powerful, johnnythexxxiv, WHY IS THE BARBARIAN SO POWERFUL?Because Barbarians are right gentlemen and thus deserve their place among the better martials ;)
Yes. Such Gentlemen
What if the (original) rogue was intentionally designed to be sub-par because Paizo knew that people were natually inclined to dicks to their fellow party members as a rogue more than any other class so they needed to make sure that everyone else could shut them down with as little effort as possible?
sounds like a problem with the person and not the class...
The rogue however doesn't go around saying "You're not up to my moral and ethical standards, either you leave the party or I must."Interesting theory... although the fact that the paladin is the class that is easiest to be disruptive with got a significant power boost kinda blows a big hole in this theory's hull... ;-)Ah, but the paladin at least is limited to being a dick for goodness! The rogue isn't.
But when the paladin is being disruptive he's really just playing his character. Rogues only use that as an excuse.
Funny, I've come close to BANNING rogues on occasion...
Something about Ifrits, smoking bottles, Thug archetype... Sap Adept...
Something like 6D6+6 sneak attack all the time against effectively blinded opponents, by, like, level 5 or something?
Don't recall the specifics, but it shut down the enemies and also prevented the group from helping, so they would basically just sit there and wait for the rogue to finish...
Oh, and naturally he was armed with polearm, lucerne hammer I think... so reach and everything... ugh.
Funny, I've come close to BANNING rogues on occasion...
Something about Ifrits, smoking bottles, Thug archetype... Sap Adept...
Something like 6D6+6 sneak attack all the time against effectively blinded opponents, by, like, level 5 or something?
Don't recall the specifics, but it shut down the enemies and also prevented the group from helping, so they would basically just sit there and wait for the rogue to finish...
Oh, and naturally he was armed with polearm, lucerne hammer I think... so reach and everything... ugh.
enemies don't become flat-footed against an opponent who they have total concealment against by RAW. so he shouldn't have been applying sneak dice.
*note it's pretty clear they intended for it to work this way but if it's a problem it's not RAW*
Our table treats total concealment the same as invisibility, as it functionally is the same.
to clarify, in this situation, because he was able to see through the smoke and the target was not, we treated it the same as invisibility.
Also, because of the Thug archetype, he can just intimidate and make people flat footed or somesuch... I don't recall the specifics, but he was doing WAY more damage than the fighter. WAY more.
Same player is always making power characters, the other players pretty much just make what they want and let him kill everything, thankfully we are all ok with the status quo, so it causes minimal friction.
to clarify, in this situation, because he was able to see through the smoke and the target was not, we treated it the same as invisibility.
Also, because of the Thug archetype, he can just intimidate and make people flat footed or somesuch... I don't recall the specifics, but he was doing WAY more damage than the fighter. WAY more.
Same player is always making power characters, the other players pretty much just make what they want and let him kill everything, thankfully we are all ok with the status quo, so it causes minimal friction.
i know what you're talking about, the main problem is the eversmoke bottle.
i know what you're talking about, the main problem is the eversmoke bottle.to clarify, in this situation, because he was able to see through the smoke and the target was not, we treated it the same as invisibility.
Also, because of the Thug archetype, he can just intimidate and make people flat footed or somesuch... I don't recall the specifics, but he was doing WAY more damage than the fighter. WAY more.
Same player is always making power characters, the other players pretty much just make what they want and let him kill everything, thankfully we are all ok with the status quo, so it causes minimal friction.
Yup. Lots of us just sitting around, hearing combat taking place, and him walking out of a cloud of smoke, bloody and victorious.
Kinda dull.
i know what you're talking about, the main problem is the eversmoke bottle.to clarify, in this situation, because he was able to see through the smoke and the target was not, we treated it the same as invisibility.
Also, because of the Thug archetype, he can just intimidate and make people flat footed or somesuch... I don't recall the specifics, but he was doing WAY more damage than the fighter. WAY more.
Same player is always making power characters, the other players pretty much just make what they want and let him kill everything, thankfully we are all ok with the status quo, so it causes minimal friction.
Yup. Lots of us just sitting around, hearing combat taking place, and him walking out of a cloud of smoke, bloody and victorious.
Kinda dull.
It's pretty easy to deal with that if you know that that's becoming an issue: introduce wind. Even a light breeze is enough for the smoke to not lap forward and instead only travel in the direction of the breeze. Other options could include: introducing baddies that can use non-visual senses to detect him (scent, tremorsense, etc.), use dispelling effects on the bottle, straight up steal the bottle, or you know, you're the GM, you are allowed to tell players to stop using irritating tactics or even audit your player's character sheets.
If you know he has a tendancy to powergame, review his characters before introducing them into the game. If they aren't in line with the rest of your players, get him to rewrite until they are.
i know what you're talking about, the main problem is the eversmoke bottle.to clarify, in this situation, because he was able to see through the smoke and the target was not, we treated it the same as invisibility.
Also, because of the Thug archetype, he can just intimidate and make people flat footed or somesuch... I don't recall the specifics, but he was doing WAY more damage than the fighter. WAY more.
Same player is always making power characters, the other players pretty much just make what they want and let him kill everything, thankfully we are all ok with the status quo, so it causes minimal friction.
Yup. Lots of us just sitting around, hearing combat taking place, and him walking out of a cloud of smoke, bloody and victorious.
Kinda dull.
It's pretty easy to deal with that if you know that that's becoming an issue: introduce wind. Even a light breeze is enough for the smoke to not lap forward and instead only travel in the direction of the breeze. Other options could include: introducing baddies that can use non-visual senses to detect him (scent, tremorsense, etc.), use dispelling effects on the bottle, straight up steal the bottle, or you know, you're the GM, you are allowed to tell players to stop using irritating tactics or even audit your player's character sheets.
If you know he has a tendancy to powergame, review his characters before introducing them into the game. If they aren't in line with the rest of your players, get him to rewrite until they are.
eversmoke bottle specifies that it ALWAYS has a 30foot orb or something around that THEN follows the wind.
Stealing the bottle is nice but you need a password to close it and unless they can breathe smoke their taking suffocation damage.
i know what you're talking about, the main problem is the eversmoke bottle.to clarify, in this situation, because he was able to see through the smoke and the target was not, we treated it the same as invisibility.
Also, because of the Thug archetype, he can just intimidate and make people flat footed or somesuch... I don't recall the specifics, but he was doing WAY more damage than the fighter. WAY more.
Same player is always making power characters, the other players pretty much just make what they want and let him kill everything, thankfully we are all ok with the status quo, so it causes minimal friction.
Yup. Lots of us just sitting around, hearing combat taking place, and him walking out of a cloud of smoke, bloody and victorious.
Kinda dull.
It's pretty easy to deal with that if you know that that's becoming an issue: introduce wind. Even a light breeze is enough for the smoke to not lap forward and instead only travel in the direction of the breeze. Other options could include: introducing baddies that can use non-visual senses to detect him (scent, tremorsense, etc.), use dispelling effects on the bottle, straight up steal the bottle, or you know, you're the GM, you are allowed to tell players to stop using irritating tactics or even audit your player's character sheets.
If you know he has a tendancy to powergame, review his characters before introducing them into the game. If they aren't in line with the rest of your players, get him to rewrite until they are.
Not a problem for the GM, a problem for the players.
Not a problem for the GM, a problem for the players.i know what you're talking about, the main problem is the eversmoke bottle.to clarify, in this situation, because he was able to see through the smoke and the target was not, we treated it the same as invisibility.
Also, because of the Thug archetype, he can just intimidate and make people flat footed or somesuch... I don't recall the specifics, but he was doing WAY more damage than the fighter. WAY more.
Same player is always making power characters, the other players pretty much just make what they want and let him kill everything, thankfully we are all ok with the status quo, so it causes minimal friction.
Yup. Lots of us just sitting around, hearing combat taking place, and him walking out of a cloud of smoke, bloody and victorious.
Kinda dull.
It's pretty easy to deal with that if you know that that's becoming an issue: introduce wind. Even a light breeze is enough for the smoke to not lap forward and instead only travel in the direction of the breeze. Other options could include: introducing baddies that can use non-visual senses to detect him (scent, tremorsense, etc.), use dispelling effects on the bottle, straight up steal the bottle, or you know, you're the GM, you are allowed to tell players to stop using irritating tactics or even audit your player's character sheets.
If you know he has a tendancy to powergame, review his characters before introducing them into the game. If they aren't in line with the rest of your players, get him to rewrite until they are.
But it is GMs job to make sure as many people as possible are enjoying themselves, so it is indirectly a problem for the GM as well.
k, the eversmoke bottle tangent needs to stop.
k, the eversmoke bottle tangent needs to stop.So - back to the rogue-hate tangent, or the paladin-hate tangent? ;)
you're right this thread needs to stop
Interesting theory... although the fact that the paladin is the class that is easiest to be disruptive with got a significant power boost kinda blows a big hole in this theory's hull... ;-)
Good job on that one, by the way. The Paladin was the most solidly constructed class in the core rule book in my opinion, and the continued support with things like Unsanctioned Knowledge and the Litany spells has been great as well.