Bloodline Familiars: Are they a fair trade?

[Weirdo]

I really want to try an abyssal mauler bloodline familiar next time I play a bloodrager. (Partly, I have to admit, because it just sounds so cool.)

I think the hawk would do nicely. At 3rd level in battle form: Str 13, 2 talons +4 (2d6+1) AC 14 (18 with mage armor), HP ~13-14 (assume master has Con 14, average rolls). Not too far off what I'd expect from a TWF rogue at that level. Plus it flies.

Quasit and dweomercat cub might also do well as combat familiars for an abyssal bloodrager - with enlarge person (share spells) the quasit gets d8/d6/d6 bite/claw/claw and has DR and fast healing to keep it alive. The dweomercat is a little weaker but dweomer leap could be very handy for putting pressure on casters. Unfortunately improved familiars don't work with Mauler by RAW, though I've heard some GMs will houserule.

Note that if the mauler's master drops a foe with at least half their HD both they and the familiar get a +2 morale bonus to attack and damage for 1 round, which is a nice little boost, especially with combined with a Courageous weapon (already recommended for ragers).

[Rynjin]

Courageous weapons are worthless now.

[Weirdo]

Were they erratta'd? I know they don't work for the unchained barbarian, but that doesn't change things for the Core barbarian or the bloodrager (the latter being the relevant point here).

[Rynjin]

The Courageous property "always totally was meant to" only apply to morale bonuses to saves against fear.

[Weirdo]

That's different from an errata. And I'm willing to bet it's less "always was meant to" than "didn't realize it was so good for the barbarian."

Second, even if they did errata it then a GM gets to decide whether they agree with that errata. I personally would houserule Courageous to be not worthless - though possibly less effective than currently. The devs aren't wrong to say it wasn't intended to be quite that good for rage. I expect most of the other GMs I play with would rule similarly.

Finally, the Courageous weapon was an afterthought - even without it I believe that a bloodrager could get good use out of an abyssal bloodline familiar.

[T.A.U.]

Uhm, I've missed it untile today...
So basically mine theorycrafted Dwarf Abyssal Bloodrager with the Primalist and Untouchable Rager archetypes (aka the Large Anti-Mage Dwarf Bloodreacher) could gain a Flanking Partner Mauler Familiar by dropping his (unused) Claws 1st level power... nice!

[Weirdo]

Not with the untouchable rager, I think. Bloodline familiars require you to delay your bloodline spells, and the untouchable rager doesn't get any. Though bloodline familiars aren't exactly an archetype it makes sense for them to be incompatible in similar ways.

[T.A.U.]

Familiar Folio wrote:

This replaces the 1st-level bloodline power granted by the character’s bloodline; in addition, the character gains bonus spells from her bloodline one level later than she normally would.

So well, strictly by RAW it could work even for Untouchable, since:

This replaces the 1st-level bloodline power granted by the character’s bloodline;
It replace the 1st level.

in addition, the character gains bonus spells from her bloodline one level later than she normally would.
It doesn't replace but delay the spell. One level later then Never, still Never.

Of course, by RAI it obviously doesn't work.

[Quandary]

Of course, by RAW, replace or modify are equivalent in terms of dictating non-compatability.

[lemeres]

Weirdo wrote:

That's different from an errata. And I'm willing to bet it's less "always was meant to" than "didn't realize it was so good for the barbarian."

Linkity link

It is an official FAQ, and on the list of things to make official errata.

And I would hardly consider courageous...completely useless. But two +1 properties (courageous and furious) shouldn't be able to give you up to an effective +10 weapon (+5 weapon +2 from furious=+7; +7/2= 3.5; 7+~3=10)

Note- that number is more based off of unchained barbarian, who gets direct bonuses on attack/damage. It courageous is slightly less broken with the old str morale bonus.

Actually, that might have been a motivation for the official FAQ- it messed with the new barbarian (which I somewhat assume it was designed as a nerf- slightly less damage, and it doesn't stack with bard anymore- but it does stack with skald, which makes sense, thematically and design wise since it gives lower bonuses)

[Weirdo]

Thanks, that's the official statement I was looking for when I asked if it had been eratta'd.

The unchained barbarian's bonus on attack and damage is untyped, to the old version of Courageous wouldn't have worked with it at all. Oddly enough inspire courage provides a competence bonus to attacks so no difference there - the spell Heroism is in my experience the most common source of morale bonuses to attacks. Also rage can't and never could stack with the skald's raging song, thanks to this FAQ.

I agree that even the slightly less effective use with old rage was overpowered, especially with furious. However, getting a +1 to +5 morale bonus to fear is not nearly worth a +1 enhancement equivalent. The change is particularly odd since any morale bonus vs fear not granted by the weapon won't stack with the one granted by the weapon.

This looks like a clumsy patch and I'll be houseruling it. I think a good compromise would be to say that Courageous can only increase a morale bonus to one stat at a time (if you activate a new morale effect you can chose to switch the courageous benefit to that effect as a free action). So a raging barbarian with a +4 courageous weapon (or a +2 furious courageous weapon) can have +2 to Str but not Con and Will saves at the same time. If that barbarian then drinks a potion of heroism they can choose to increase their to-hit bonus by 2 instead of their strength bonus.

[lemeres]

Weirdo wrote:

Thanks, that's the official statement I was looking for when I asked if it had been eratta'd.

The unchained barbarian's bonus on attack and damage is untyped, to the old version of Courageous wouldn't have worked with it at all. Oddly enough inspire courage provides a competence bonus to attacks so no difference there - the spell Heroism is in my experience the most common source of morale bonuses to attacks. Also rage can't and never could stack with the skald's raging song, thanks to this FAQ.

Oh yes, always get the bard things confused since they are often the ones popping heroism spells like candy. And I feel no shame in saying that unchained mystifies me over all (I am still trying to wrap my head around why there is a need for the whole monk thing when we have brawlers, sohei, and pummeling charge- each of those offer solutions to monk problems unchained said it would solve)

Oh, I'll admit- few people will be trying to get their crafters to make courageous now. But heck, that is true for the vast majority of weapon properties. I usually view properties like that as something to tack onto a found weapon, and maybe the party will use it for other reasons (high enhancement bonus, ghost touch, it was found on a corpse that had good reason to want a courageous weapon in that dungeon, etc.)

Fear can be rather bad, so if you find a courageous weapon and it is nice enough...eh, might as well grab it. The mechanics are weird, I'll admit- it seems like it is meant to stay relevant even if you get a spell that would make it obsolete (ie- a +2 weapon on a character with heroism on it for regular buff reasons- instead of just being useless, it makes your vs. fear save into +3)

[Weirdo]

The difference in cost between a +2 weapon and a +2 courageous weapon is 10K. You can get a +3 cloak of resistance for that. Or for just 5K you can grant all allies within 30ft (and you are your own ally) a +4 morale bonus vs fear.

A weapon property that will only be used if it's thrown in like a "free gift" on a weapon that they want for other reasons is a bad property. (And yes, I'm aware that Courageous isn't the only one.)

[kyrt-ryder]

Arachnofiend wrote:

chaoseffect wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

You're cherry picking what many consider to be the best bloodline in the game. Look, I can cherry pick too: do you really think trading out draconic's claws for a familiar is a balanced trade?

As for the combat familiars, remember that Bloodragers can swap for these too.

I would say that no Sorcerer bloodline EVER should have seriously been given a natural attack or 1d4+nothing ray 1st level power. Bloodline familiars without the spell penalty would just go a long way toward correcting the horrible design choices made for a lot of bloodlines.

Yeah, yeah, let's all feel sorry for the 9th level caster having subpar class features.

It's... kind of hard not to when the Sorcerer is playing in the same game as Wizards and Clerics and Shamans.

Granted when played to their potential by level 6ish they're still sidelining the beatsticks, but the better casters always have nicer things and are always a step ahead in some way.

Heck Arcanist is on the same spellcasting track and even it makes the Sorcerer sadpanda.

[LazarX]

wraithstrike wrote:

I think Rynjin is aking for a logical reason as to why this is a good idea from a mechanical perspective. Familiars are not normally in combat anyway, so why trade delay bonus spells for something you will likely never use?

If you will never use it, then you shouldn't be making the trade in the first place. Presumably the option is there for people who DO want a familiar that badly.

[kyrt-ryder]

He's more specifically referring to delaying the progression of bonus spells-known for increased damage dice on the familiar. I'm sure he has some use in mind for the familiar but its not using natural attacks.