Need help understanding NPC build CR

[kevin_video]

So I've read a few things that I'm getting a bit confused on. Namely, how CR works when it comes to multiclassing NPCs with NPC classes and regular base classes.

What I know:
A warrior 4 is CR 2 and has the basic stat array of 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8, and 1650 gold.
A fighter 4 is CR 3 and has the heroic stat array of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8, and 2400 gold.
A fighter 4 with PC wealth is CR 4.
A fighter 4 with PC wealth and 20-25 point buy stats is CR 5.

So, this where it breaks down to what I don't understand.
What's a warrior 4 with heroic stats? +1 CR? Is that even allowed? Or are you better off just adding the Simple Advanced Template for a proper +1 CR?
What's a fighter 2/warrior 2? CR 2? CR 3? At what point does the CR fluctuate? When it's fighter 2/warrior 6? Fighter 2/warrior 3? When does the -2 CR kick instead instead of just -1? If a fighter 4 added a level of warrior, does it actually increase to a CR 4? How about a magus 4 taking a level of aristocrat?

It's all these variants that get me.

[Bob Bob Bob]

Alright, so here's the step-by-step.

A NPC has the basic stat array if it only has NPC classes.
A NPC has the heroic stat array if it has at least one PC class.
There is no allowance for a NPC with only NPC class levels to have the heroic array.

From there it's CR=Level-1, or CR=Level-2 if it only has NPC class levels. Then you increase the CR by 1 if you give the NPC "PC wealth".

To answer your questions, there is no stated way to give a Warrior 4 the heroic array without giving it a PC class. The advanced template is a quick and dirty boost, you should avoid using it as much as possible.

A fighter 2/warrior 2 is CR 3 with the heroic array. It does not fluctuate. NPCs are CR=level-1 unless they're all NPC levels. Yes, a fighter 4/warrior 1 is CR 4. Ditto the magus.

[Lifat]

But it also does state that you should use common sense when building your NPC's. Try comparing it to other NPC's and/or monsters and see if the CR you arrived at holds up. Don't be afraid to deviate slightly.
And always remember that the GM is NOT an adversary to the PC's.

As a GM you should try to think of yourself as a writer of a novel, where the end should be unknown. Usually the main characters have to go through a lot of challenges to succeed, and those dangers are what makes it all dramatic and interesting. But imagine reading a book where the main characters often (or always) fail... Is that a fun story? Not really.

[kevin_video]

So how about monsters with NPC and classes that aren't their favoured? If a CR 4 creature takes 1 level of warrior, are they suddenly CR 3? And non favored are also -2 or are they worth half (6 levels of wizard on ogre = +3 CR)?

[RegUS PatOff]

Monster with class levels halve the non-key class levels. An Ogre with 6 wizard levels is CR+3. Once non-key exceed the monster's original CR, treat them as key and they add +1 per level. So an Ogre with 8 lecels of wizard would get CR3 (base) +3 (first 6 wizard levels) + 2 (last 2 wizard levels), or CR8.

They also get the heroic stat adjustment to benefit their class levels.

NPC levels are never considered key, so they are always halved. Also, if the first HD is from an NPC class level, then the monster does not get max HP for that level. NPC levels never give the monster the heroic stat adjustment.

So an Ogre with 8 Adept levels wouldn't get the stat adjustment and would be CR7 (3+(8/2)).

Generally, mixing odd levels needs some adjudication by you as the GM. Review the creatures with class levels section of the SRD for comparable creatures to get a sense of the equivalent CR.

The CR reduction for all NPC levels doesn'f apply to monsters with class levels. A CR4 creature with 2 NPC levels is CR5. With only one NPC level they are either 4 or 5. Generally I treat them as 5 because they get heroic wealth, but I'm not sure if there is a written rule on rounding up or down.

[RegUS PatOff]

A simple way to think about CR advancement for monsters with class levels is that they fulfill and are judged on their core key focus threat level until the non-core level additions change them into a different type of threat. So an Ogre with 6 wizard levels is 1/2 melee CR3, and half wizard (CR+3). But an ogre with 8 wizard levels is really a tough wizard, not as much of a duel threat to a CR8 party, so he's a CR8 which equals his wizard levels.

Similarly, if he was a wizard 16, he'd be CR16 because of his wizard levels - the ogre base CR really doesn't impact this.

But if he could be an adept 16, then he'd be CR3 + (1/2 * 16), or CR11. So you can see the formula kind of breaks down at higher levels.

[kevin_video]

Well, I ask because I'm seeing so many monster NPCs and standard race NPCs that are multiclassed with PC/NPC classes, and there doesn't seem to be a consistency. Like, a dwarf expert 4/fighter 2 being CR 4. Or a druid 4 ogre being CR 5 even though it has PC wealth. Then you've got the ones where the math is correct like the allip oracle 10 that's CR 11. It just seems like not everyone that's writing these up are on the same page which makes me wondering what's going on. It makes for a confusing time.

[Bruunwald]

kevin_video wrote:

So I've read a few things that I'm getting a bit confused on. Namely, how CR works when it comes to multiclassing NPCs with NPC classes and regular base classes.

What I know:
A warrior 4 is CR 2 and has the basic stat array of 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8, and 1650 gold.
A fighter 4 is CR 3 and has the heroic stat array of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8, and 2400 gold.
A fighter 4 with PC wealth is CR 4.
A fighter 4 with PC wealth and 20-25 point buy stats is CR 5.

So, this where it breaks down to what I don't understand.
What's a warrior 4 with heroic stats? +1 CR? Is that even allowed? Or are you better off just adding the Simple Advanced Template for a proper +1 CR?

Break the two examples down into their attendant ability score bonuses:

A warrior 4 is CR 2 and has the basic stat array/bonuses of 13 (+1), 12 (+1), 11 (+0), 10 (+0), 9 (-1), 8 (-1).
A fighter 4 is CR 3 and has the heroic stat array/bonuses of 15 (+2), 14 (+2), 13 (+1), 12 (+1), 10 (+0), 8 (-1).

Those bonuses, depending on where they go, represent a better chance to hit, to deal more damage, to avoid being hit, more hit points, etc. If this were a spellcasting class, they would mean more spells, higher DCs, etc. This can merit a +1 CR depending on how they are applied. This is less like making a character and more nuanced, like making a monster. But it can be done. My recommendation is to become as accustomed to the monster creation rules as possible. The more you do so, the less these odd situations will perplex you. They're more art than science.

The rules are written as they are for ease of use of novice GMs. That's why they're so cut-and dry, and why they encourage coloring within the lines. But there's no reason you shouldn't be able to - carefully - draw up some lines of your own.

[kevin_video]

Bruunwald wrote:

The rules are written as they are for ease of use of novice GMs. That's why they're so cut-and dry, and why they encourage coloring within the lines. But there's no reason you shouldn't be able to - carefully - draw up some lines of your own.

Oh sure there is. If two authors are doing builds, and one guy says "Well, as per how I interpret the rules, this warrior 4/fighter 2 is CR 4." while the other guy says "As per how I interpret the rules, this warrior 4/fighter 2 is CR 5." Both are considered right and get published. Neither gets told by the editor "this is the correct way." Neither hand is talking to each other, and one is wrong. I'm asking which one so I know for when I do it. And no, I don't expect the editor to know 100% how the build should be, but it'd be nice.